A 3rd person's account of Joey's system...

[Joey_V]

Introduction:
In all actuality, this all started out as a shootout between 2 speakers:
Axiom Audio's M3ti bookshelf vs AV123's Strata Mini

... BUT ended up in a revelation by the way of the Martin Logan Summit! If you're short on time, skip over to the bottom, "SIDEBAR" section and read from there!:cheers:

Read on my friends...
A local audiophile (who later that evening became a friend) requested if he could come by and listen to the AV123's Minis as I had the only pair in the Chicago city-proper area. I said ok...

My audiophile friend came by, we met on HeadFi.org an audiophile community consisting of mainly headphone fanatics, and brought his trusty Axiom M3ti that he has been very happy with since he got them a year or 2 ago. We unpacked his M3ti and tried several spots before we came to the agreement to place the M3ti inside the Strata Mini infront of the Martin Logans.... we didnt want to place the M3ti too far apart.

We put the M3ti's on a 31" stand to align the tweeters up to the same level as the Minis and we pulled the listening chair back to form the "equilateral triangle" of critical listening. We dimmed the lights and listened...

At first, tried out his $30 Sonic T-Amp for fun. As you can see by the pictures, it's a nifty little device, but wasnt impressive to me at all. Too thin, too diffuse, and easily distorted especially with the Minis at about 80-85db of listening volume. Ok for a $30 product, but worth a serious look? Nah.

Matt was quick to ask me to hook up the big boys and toss the "toy" aside... referring to his T-Amp. So we did.

We hooked up the Squeezebox3 to the Cary SLP-98L Tube preamplifier and into the Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier... readily plugged into either the Axiom M3ti or the Strata Mini.

We demoed 4 songs total... we went from the Axiom M3ti then to the Strata Mini and then to the Axiom M3ti and then back to the Strata Mini... rinse and repeat PER SONG (x4).

The song selections:
1. Pennies from Heaven - Louis Prima
2. Sleighride - Ella Fitzgerald
3. Mr. Big To Be With You - Extreme
4. Keys to the Highway - BB King and Eric Clapton

Initially, I listened to both speakers and made sure they were aligned and properly positioned. I made sure each pair was imaging well and had proper staging. I manned all the switching and Matt stayed in the chair, thereafter.

Matt's Comments:
1. Pennies from Heaven:
Axiom
- "No grit in the sound, clean."
- "Background singers were piercing."
Mini
- "There was grit, Louis' voice was gritty... in a good way. The Axioms had barely any grit, it was there, but it wasnt noticeable. The Minis were more resolving of this hidden detail."
- "Tonality of the trumpet was better than the Axioms could resolve, in terms of tonality. Seemed to be more real."
- "The background singers did not have that slight metallic quality of the Axioms... very natural sounding even in the upper registers."

2. Sleighride - Ella Fitzgerald
Axiom
- "Metallic, slightly grating at times."
- "Sounded clean overall."
- "Trumpet did not remove itself from the speaker, slight boxiness was detected."
Mini
- "Laid back, maybe a little too laid back."
- "Trupmet was to the inside right of the Mini (R) speaker. Very cool effect."
- "Preferred Mini in this track, but not as much as I did on the first track... lesser of a lead, I'm impressed by the Axioms."

3. Mr Big to be with You - Extreme
Axiom
- "Boxed in imaging, no lateral soundstage outside both speakers."
- "Good center image, probably just as good as the Minis in terms of the lead singer."
- "Good depth and background vocals."
- "Very nicely renditioned lead singer."
- "More calculated sound, vs the Mini's musical sound."
Mini
- "Imaged well beyond the outside lateral borders of the speakers.
- "Tonality of the background singers was better than the Axioms presented."
- "Similar lead singer... well done by the Axioms!"
- "Minis was more musical, more organic. Better overall. Man, that was an awesome track, Joey! I want that one! Burn it!"
4. Keys to the Highway - BB King
Axioms
- "Eric Clapton was a little too bright, didnt sound realistic.
- "No drums were resolved by the Axioms whatsoever, I couldnt see it on the stage at all."
- "Guitar was piercing, not realistic."
- "Imaging wasnt solid on this one.. not sure if it was biased to the Right or the Center."
Minis
- "Drums were lifelike, so much easier for me to see on the stage."
- "BB King's voice was far more realistic, very gritty, very dynamic and deep in certain parts... very real."
- "BB King's guitar solo was realistic and was very well done. I've had this CD for some time and I've never heard it done as well as the Minis did them just now. That was truly the best demo song of the night, I want the Minis now! Very impressed with your selection of songs, Joey!"

My (Joey's) thoughts:
First off, I want to say that it was a great opportunity having Matt over at my place today! It was certainly great having an audiophile with atleast as much (if not more) dedication to this hobby of ours as I do, over for a listening session. Matt is a very critical listener, and I wouldnt be surprised if he has better ears than I do.

It was great seeing the Axioms again... one look at the M3ti and the memories of my black M22ti came rushing back. The cabinet, the asymmetric walls, the vortex port, the titanium tweeter, the aluminum woofer... it was as if the Axiom M22ti never left my room. It wasnt long before the Axiom and I were reacquainted.

My impressions of the Axiom M3ti are very favorable. First, I will say that they image wonderfully. The center image is on par with speakers that are far more expensive, most definitely. It had body and soul in the vocal reproduction. Vocal imaging was good, and vocal focus was definitely good through my system of preamps and amps. The midrange was clean and it came through clearly. The bass was tight, with nary the hint of bloat. I did not fault the Axioms for not reproducting bass as extended as the Minis, I listened mainly for coherence in the midrange and up, which by the way, the Axioms were quite coherent in.

The Mini, however, is a different animal. The Mini is more musical, better at resolving, better at staging, better at being box-less than the Axioms. I felt that the Minis were more, shall we say, "organic" sounding whereas the Axioms were more "clinical" sounding. Hard to explain, but if you were in my room with us, you'd understand. Irregardless of bass, the Mini had a better and more coherent midrange and treble.

HOWEVER, during the listening session, there were times when I felt that the Axiom M3ti were right on par with the Minis in terms of resolution and transparency, but the M3 lacked that last bit of realism that was instilled into almost every detail reproduced.

There is detail, and then there's realistic detail... probably the best way I could put it in words.

The Axioms were very good in their own right. I certainly have a lot of respect for the Axioms and what they can do at their pricepoint. They are certainly solid speakers sonically.

Conclusion:
The Minis are $1600 while the Axioms barely tip the scale at $300. The price discrepancy is large, but was it worth it? According to Matt, yes it was. He is getting a pair of the Strata Minis and moving his Axiom M3ti to bedroom duty with his upcoming Sonos system.

 

[Joey_V]

Sidebar:
I didnt want to muddy up the playing field by including the Martin Logan Summits in a 3-way shootout. Matt came by to specifically listen to the Minis vs the M3ti and playing the Summits, to me, would be detrimental to his listening session as it would add another factor to consider in determining overall value of each of the speakers he was auditioning.

But in the end, Matt requested that I play 2 songs on the ML Summits before I had to leave for dinner. Reluctantly, I said, OK.

So I plugged in the ML Summits... and let 2 songs play. The first song was BB King's Keys to the Highway and the second song was Extreme's Mr Big to be with You. I stood behind Matt while he sat in his chair... we were embraced by luscious music. A few minutes later, I turned on the lights, the songs had ended.... and I asked him what he thought.

He asked for the Minis to be plugged in again and we listened to the same 2 songs on the Minis. Lights off while the music played, and Matt closed his eyes and drifted to the Mini's version of this acoustic landscape. The 2 songs ended, we played it one last time on the Martin Logan Summits. Lights off, 2 songs, lights on.

"Well?" I asked, "... and dont sugar coat it."

Matt:
- "Absolutely amazing centerfill. The Summits' centerstage had so much more information than the Minis. The imaging on the Summits were very very much tighter than on the Minis, listening to the Minis right after the Summits made me realize how "non-imaged" the Minis are. The vocals arent on the same level of focus. The lead singer was never as controlled on the Minis as he was on the ML Summits. The guitar solo was far more pronounced. Everything was much more realistic, when I didnt think it was possible to exceed the realism presented by the Minis. The staging was more accurate, the guitar was always 3 feet tall and the vocals were always 5 feet tall or so."

"The initial drum strikes sounded so much more real than even on the Minis, there was no comparison! The staging is better, there is absolutely no boxiness to it. By comparison, the Minis is more boxed in by a large margin."

"The Summits were truly mind blowing. Joey, I will tell you, I was just at Glenn Poor, the high end esoteric dealer in Chicago, and I listened to their $150,000 super system with the $50,000 Wilson Maxx2.... and your ML Summits are better to my ears. You have the best system I have ever heard."

"And considering the fact that the Logans had the worst placement of the 3, being too close inside and too close to the front wall, it's scary to know that the Summits can get better! We're only scratching the surface..."

"If you get a better DAC, it'd be sick!"

"Mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing... I dont know what else to say. I never heard anything near that level of reproduction, period."

Pictures:
Setting up the systems...

 

[DTB300]

"The Summits were truly mind blowing. Joey, I will tell you, I was just at Glenn Poor, the high end esoteric dealer in Chicago, and I listened to their $150,000 super system with the $50,000 Wilson Maxx2.... "

I would also agree on the Summits vs the Maxx2's. I have never heard them play side by side with the same equipment, but the Maxx2's are setup in my local store with more expensive equipment and the Summit sounds better each and every time I have heard both. The Maxx2's can really put out the sound and completely fill up a room, but I am looking for quality over quantity, and the Summit has always won that battle for me and my tastes.

Dan

 

[TomDac]

Epilogue:

What Joey DIDN'T include in his story:

Matt went home and a strange feeling came over him. He tried to go to bed, but tossed and turned all night; visions of the MartinLogan experience haunted his thoughts.

The next morning he was tired from lack of sleep but also felt a little feverish and his stomach felt weird. He was definitely out of sorts. He looked at himself in the bathroom mirror and saw his tired red eyes looking back at him. Joey's clouded face appeared in the mirror and said, "Summits kick ass, biatch!" Matt blinked and Joey was gone!

The skin on Matt's stomach started to itch terribly. He started to scratch it and then pulled up his t-shirt to reveal "Help me" slowly forming in raised bumps on his skin. Matt began to shake uncontrollably and began to panic. "What is hapening to me!!", he screamed!!

He ran back into the bedroom and picked up the telephone and called Joey at the hospital and told him what had just happened. There was a thunderclap and suddenly Matt heard Joey's voice change into something deep, menacing and most definitely evil devil. A wicked laugh came out of the telephone and Matt slammed it down and backed away, a look of sheer horror on his face.

Matt realized what had happened... Joey infected him with the dreaded Joey-itis!

Matt's OK everyone.. He spent a few hours on Audiogon looking for some Logans which seemed to relieve the symptons. For now. Mwa-HA Ha ha ha! :devil:

 

[TomDac]

Epilouge Part 2: The Reckoning.

After Matt left Joey's dorm/cubicle/cell, Joey got ready for dinner. He left and met his girlfriend at their favorite restaurant. They had a nice dinner and then Joey had to get home to get some sleep... He had early rounds at the hospital.

Joey laid in bed thinking about Matt coming over and the fun they had listening to music and comparing speakers together. "This is such a great hobby", he thought to himself.

He drifted off to sleep and dreamed of his friend Matt and how he said, "If you get a better DAC, it would be SICK!" The dream turned ugly as Joey saw himself searching Audiogon for a new DAC. He knew he couldn't afford yet another upgrade, but there he was, researching DACs.. looking at specs, reading reviews and comparison shopping. He woke up from his dream and knew what he had to do...

Joey-itis strikes again!

 

[IWalker]

Right now I'm sure Joey is saying "woah! how did tom know!"

 

[Robin]

"Joeyitis"

Tom,

Epilouge and Epilouge Part 2: The Reckoning was great and very funny...

I especially enjoyed the: Mwa-Ha Ha ha ha ha! :devil:

 

[Statman]

I would also agree on the Summits vs the Maxx2's. I have never heard them play side by side with the same equipment, but the Maxx2's are setup in my local store with more expensive equipment and the Summit sounds better each and every time I have heard both. The Maxx2's can really put out the sound and completely fill up a room, but I am looking for quality over quantity, and the Summit has always won that battle for me and my tastes.

Dan

Can you be more specific in regards "better"? Also can you explain to us quality over quantity? I'd like to hear your answer listening to both speakers in the same room with the same equipment? Just listened to the Summits again this week due to the fact that I wanted to hear the ARC LS26! I now know what preamp I'll be getting if my plans for the Ref 3 fall through. If I were to go back to a stat panel the Summit is the one I'd get. To my ears the Maxx 2's were able to reveal more detail and subtle low level information than the Summits? Also more dynamic. Both speakers throw a tall image and have great soundstaging. The Summit's high end is naturally smoother than the dome tweeter in the Maxx 2.

The Summit has improved on the panel/woofer integration. It's still there but not as evident as the past models have been. Not trying to offend all Martin Logan owners especially since I have my Sequel II's still. But you have to admit most of us are biased? I've owned Magnepan,Acoustat, and Martin Logans and they all basically are limited the same. The ability to play cleanly when really pushed.The one thing that I've noticed is dynamic drivers have advanced a lot since I last owned a pair which has been over 20 years ago.

 

[twich54]

Interesting review Joey, but "Papa Dave" aka "Eagle eye" noticed you still have your other "associated" componets sitting atop your SA-102, that's a NO-NO ! Non- compliance will force me to come over and take your Plinius from you !!!!

 

[DTB300]

Can you be more specific in regards "better"? Also can you explain to us quality over quantity? I'd like to hear your answer listening to both speakers in the same room with the same equipment?

Like I stated in my previous post, I have never heard them side by side using the same electronics. When I have heard both, I thought the Summits portrayed musical instruments better putting them in their own place with the proper sound.

For the price involved with the Maxx2's, they just do not grab me as WHOA what a great sounding speaker!!! On the other hand, the Summits compared to the Vantage is the same thing for me. I would rather purchase a Vantage + Sub, and still have $3k left over for other things. To me the Vantage gives you 80% of the performance of the Summit...it just does not do low end as well. The panel performance is a real toss up and is hard to determine which is better.

To my ears the Maxx 2's were able to reveal more detail and subtle low level information than the Summits? Also more dynamic.

And I thought the Summit was able to reveal the details better than the Maxx2's. The Maxx was more dynamic as you stated, and could really fill a room up with sound. But the overall detail abilities to me was on the Summit side. Yeah, the Maxx2 could do bass and lower mids better, but you can purhcase one heck of a sub setup to go with the Summit to equal the bass and still have many many thousands left.

For the Wilson lineup, my favorite speaker of theirs is the Sophia, which I would purchase in a heart-beat over a Maxx2 if I had the money for both (the older Watt/Puppy was also good). The Sophia is one of their best bang for the buck in the lineup. Just my opinion on the matter - and like I have stated before, it is neither right or wrong, just my preference.

I still have not given up on hearing the Maxx2's, and maybe one day, I will hear a setup that will really WOW me for the cost involved. It is the same thing as we tell people here who have listen to some ML's at stores and not be very happy with the results. Proper setup and equipment is essential to making a speaker sound its best.

The Summit has improved on the panel/woofer integration. It's still there but not as evident as the past models have been.

Yes, the integration of the Summit and its woofers are the best so far. During my listening sessions with the Summit, once the controls are adjusted for the setup and room, I found the integration was very good. It was hard to know the speakers had a woofer in it and it was not just a panel playing with a sub attached in the room somewhere. Yet with previous models (yes I also own Sequel's) this was not attainable to the point of the Summit.

In the end if you are looking for dynamics, power, and room filling sound (for a very large room) the Maxx2's are better than the Summit's. But for overall detail, proper placement and sound and realistic lower SPL's, I like the Summits better. And just think what I could do with the other $35k I just saved...Hmmm.....

Dan

 

[Beat_Dominator]

I keep forgetting how small the Summits look!

Good story Joey, nice to hear that the little speakers had strengths.

 

[Joey_V]

I keep forgetting how small the Summits look!

Good story Joey, nice to hear that the little speakers had strengths.

It's not LITTLE!

The guy in the picture is not me... that's Matt - he's like 6'3" or so... and that's why the Summits look "small" in the pic.

Otherwise, it's a big speaker! You hurt its feelings... bad Ben!

JK!

Joey

 

[Joey_V]

Interesting review Joey, but "Papa Dave" aka "Eagle eye" noticed you still have your other "associated" componets sitting atop your SA-102, that's a NO-NO ! Non- compliance will force me to come over and take your Plinius from you !!!!

Papa Dave!

Melissa (gf) is getting me a rack for Christmas so I'll be ok!! Dont take the Plinny!

Joey:stop:

 

[Joey_V]

Can you be more specific in regards "better"? Also can you explain to us quality over quantity?

Dynamicman,

That remark was not from me... that was from Matt.

And if you ask me my opinion, I think the Maxx2 is better than the Summit, atleast from what I remember from the auditions I had with the Maxx2 and the Halcro/BAT monoblocks. Remember that thread I had posted a while ago?

I claimed that the Maxx2 with the Halcros were the best speakers I have ever heard so far.

Joey :cheers:

 

[Joey_V]

Right now I'm sure Joey is saying "woah! how did tom know!"

I hate Tom... he mocks me!!

(But he's so right... damn you Tom!)

JOey :banghead:

 

[Skyline]

So did you convince him to buy a pair of MLs? :cheers:

 

[Joey_V]

So did you convince him to buy a pair of MLs? :cheers:

He WANTS the Summits now... I should be a salesman! Maybe Gayle can send me a pair of CLX for free... :rocker: .

He emailed me right when he got back to his condo... first sentence. I want to upgrade my speakers NOW!!!

LOL, Joeyitis strikes a new soul!

Joey

 

[DTB300]

And if you ask me my opinion, I think the Maxx2 is better than the Summit, atleast from what I remember from the auditions I had with the Maxx2 and the Halcro/BAT monoblocks. Remember that thread I had posted a while ago?

Joey...Good to hear your opinion on them. Guess I just have not heard the right setup yet for the Maxx2's Like I said, I will continue to listen to them when I come across them out in stereo-land.

Dan

 

[twich54]

Papa Dave!

Melissa (gf) is getting me a rack for Christmas so I'll be ok!! Dont take the Plinny!

Joey:stop:

That's good, but untill then I would not run it biased to Class A for you will cook it with the gear sitting on top !!

 

[Rich]

Melissa (gf) is getting me a rack for Christmas so I'll be ok!! Joey:stop:

She is getting you a rack for Christmas. She got you a squeezebox for your birthday. Damn, Joey, you are training this girl right. You just might have to marry her. By then, you will have her trained so well that the only WAF you will have to worry about is whether she prefers the cherry trim or the bubinga trim on the new Super Summits.