Why does Stereophile not recommend a single Martin Logan speaker?

tonepub said:

I like that one!

Click to expand...

I guess you are really chuffed about that !

User211 said:

Got given Stereophile October 2008 at the London Hi-Fi show. I paid £10 entrance and got a bag with at least that value of magazines in it. Brilliant. Anyway, can't help but notice that in the list of recommended speakers, there is not one single ML. Any regular readers know why?

Click to expand...

ML's have routinely appeared on the recommended list, usually with an A or B rating. Components get on the list only if they've been reviewed, stay on it for as long as they are current models and for as long as the reviewers have vivid memories of them. At the moment, there are no current ML models reviewed (and thus recommended), and considering the Spires and CLXes are essentially brand new it will take a while before they are reviewed, if at all. But does anyone really care?

But oddly enough, things like the Vandersteen 2 has been on the list for 20 years....

Just goes to show, the hifi world is wacky.

spectral said:

ML's have routinely appeared on the recommended list, usually with an A or B rating. Components get on the list only if they've been reviewed, stay on it for as long as they are current models and for as long as the reviewers have vivid memories of them. At the moment, there are no current ML models reviewed (and thus recommended), and considering the Spires and CLXes are essentially brand new it will take a while before they are reviewed, if at all.

Click to expand...

This post gives me an opportunity to vent. I think Stereophile's recommended lists are not very worthwhile. Why? Let me count the ways. For starters. The new BAT Rex preamp is listed as a class A component. So is the VK3i preamp (same company) at about 1/5 the price. If I'm about to plunk down some long green, am I to assume both preamps will sound the same? (I don't think soooo....)
Secondly: Let's say I'm new to the world of expensive audio. Let's say I'd like to buy an expensive tonearm. Stereophile gives me several choices such as the Graham Phantom, the Kuzma etc, etc., etc. Just because they haven't reviewed the SME V in about 100 years, they don't list it, although it once appeared as class A. As a new audiophile, I know nothing of SME. It might sound great on my tt, but reading Stereophile's recommended list, I know nothing of it.
My opininion: Stereophile's bi-annual lists are not worth very much.
Thanks for the rant!

I agree with Jeff and most other posts here.

My question - why get so hung up about it?

We're interested in audio, so we enjoy reading others' opinions about it. I read the mags too. Read them for interest, but stop there!!

Only a serious fool would make a buying decision based on:
* Someone elses' opinion; of equipment in
* someone elses' system; placed in
* someone elses' room; with
* someone elses' anciliary components; with
* someone elses' music; set up to
* someone elses' parameters.

I could go on. The lists are one part of Stereophile I don't read. I'm interested in someone elses' opinion, but I never let their opinion form mine!

Just consider this - flick through any mag and of all the equipment and advertisments, there are enough people buying it to make all of those companies comercially viable.

Does that mean that everything should be in a Class A list?

Just because "we've" bought ML, doesn't mean it should be in someone elses' "top" list, surely?

There's room for all audio equipment! That's what makes our hobby so diverse and interesting.

amey01 said:

Just consider this - flick through any mag and of all the equipment and advertisments, there are enough people buying it to make all of those companies comercially viable.

Does that mean that everything should be in a Class A list?

Just because "we've" bought ML, doesn't mean it should be in someone elses' "top" list, surely?

There's room for all audio equipment! That's what makes our hobby so diverse and interesting.

Click to expand...

you know that's a great point ameyo1. a lot of people like a lot of different audio gear for different reasons although I could be wrong but I believe the issue these other members are refering to is that you would think martin logan would pop up more than they do . it's sort of seems as though they have been shunned for whatever reason.

FISH_MAN said:

you know that's a great point ameyo1. a lot of people like a lot of different audio gear for different reasons although I could be wrong but I believe the issue these other members are refering to is that you would think martin logan would pop up more than they do . it's sort of seems as though they have been shunned for whatever reason.

Click to expand...

I know this is a ML board, it's just that I see too many comments to the effect of

"I've found ML, I think they're the best, so everyone should also think they're the best, so there's no reason for any other speaker to exist, so every other speaker manufacturer should remove themselves from existance"

It's not the case at all. To put it into perspective, what if I said "I chose a Copland preamp because I think they're the best so you all should get one too".

Herein lies the inherent problem with these sorts of things!

ML do feature in plenty of positive reviews and plenty of "Top x" lists - most notably on my mind is the "Best sound at show" for the CLX in Mùnchen......

aliveatfive said:

My opininion: Stereophile's bi-annual lists are not worth very much.
Thanks for the rant!

Click to expand...

No disagreement there. I have never used it - in fact, only two of my current system components (DAC, tuner) have ever been reviewed by the magazine and well over 13 years ago, and I bought them before their respective reviews...

aliveatfive said:

The new BAT Rex preamp is listed as a class A component. So is the VK3i preamp (same company) at about 1/5 the price. If I'm about to plunk down some long green, am I to assume both preamps will sound the same? (I don't think soooo....)

Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head here....

aliveatfive said:

Saw a short paragraph in S'phile a while back which stated they could not obtain ML product for review.

Click to expand...

This is the answer, really, isn't it? Shame... but, hey... people/companies fall out somethimes.

Maybe they'll make friends again

Also, keep in mind, that may not be the whole story....

When new products come out, they aren't always available when you want to get it in for review.

We've been waiting for the Meridian DSP7200's for a year now and they just arrived last week! And I believe we have the first US review. The folks at Meridian have been backordered for a year on these.

(After a week, with them, I see why!)

Keeping a steady stream of gear in for review is a full time job on its own. Mfrs don't always have it when you are ready and vice versa.

So while many would like to point to a conspiracy, many times its just a matter of not enough hours in a day.

Well, I suppose it didn't say "we couldn't get any ML kit because they won't talk to us anymore...". I guess I'd just made a sweeping assertion...

In a sense, though, it would be unpatriotic for Stereophile not to review the CLX. With nothing in the recommended list, no matter what people think of it, any sensible review would put in the CLX there. I hope it happens. Be proud, fellow Americans, that's a damn fine speaker!

I think both the US and UK are losing their faith in their ability to "make" anything well - there seems to be the belief that only the Chinese can do it. Having been there recently, they aren't that great! Sure they get plus points for their culture, cities, manuf. ability, but then they get plenty of negs, too.

Meridian, hey? Maybe the UK can still make some things... but they won't be cheap, unfortunately! But then again, for all I know these days, they may be outsourcing to China, and charging a good "design" price....

aliveatfive said:

This post gives me an opportunity to vent. I think Stereophile's recommended lists are not very worthwhile. Why? Let me count the ways. For starters. The new BAT Rex preamp is listed as a class A component. So is the VK3i preamp (same company) at about 1/5 the price. If I'm about to plunk down some long green, am I to assume both preamps will sound the same? (I don't think soooo....)Secondly: Let's say I'm new to the world of expensive audio. Let's say I'd like to buy an expensive tonearm. Stereophile gives me several choices such as the Graham Phantom, the Kuzma etc, etc., etc. Just because they haven't reviewed the SME V in about 100 years, they don't list it, although it once appeared as class A. As a new audiophile, I know nothing of SME. It might sound great on my tt, but reading Stereophile's recommended list, I know nothing of it.
My opininion: Stereophile's bi-annual lists are not worth very much.
Thanks for the rant!

Click to expand...

Interesting viewpoint, but I don't have a problem with both of those preamps being in class A. Class A just means that the piece has reached a level that it is near the best that has been heard and does an outstanding job in comparison with lesser classed equipment. That there are differences within that class is to be expected. If one were to assume that the Summit would have been designated as a class A speaker and then the CLX is reviewed and it also gets a class A rating, would you expect both of the speakers to sound the same? Of course not.

Nope, Meridian makes all of their stuff, even the F80 table radios in the
UK facility. Bob Stuart is pretty staunchly against going to China for assembly....

Credibility ?

C.A.P said:

Because Stereo phile is just that A PHILE of sh!t !
Adds pay salaries and wages !

Click to expand...

I still buy it occasionally for the entertainment factor but since the day I had both a Creek integrated and a Unico Integrated in my den connected to new Opera Primas I can't take their reviews seriously. One made beautiful music while the other made my ears bleed. Guess which one was A rated by Stereophile?

The Unico even did a credible job with the Summits while my main system was down once I put a couple of Heath Mullard 12AU7 tubes in it.

slowGEEZR said:

Interesting viewpoint, but I don't have a problem with both of those preamps being in class A. Class A just means that the piece has reached a level that it is near the best that has been heard and does an outstanding job in comparison with lesser classed equipment. That there are differences within that class is to be expected. If one were to assume that the Summit would have been designated as a class A speaker and then the CLX is reviewed and it also gets a class A rating, would you expect both of the speakers to sound the same? Of course not.

Click to expand...

S'phile makes no value judgement concerning the relative merit of either preamp over the other. I bet if you questioned the manufacturer, he would be pi$$ed. Why should a user pay 15 grand for a piece of equipment when the same manufacturer markets a much cheaper piece of equipment that has been rated just as highly by a magazine!

aliveatfive said:

S'phile makes no value judgement concerning the relative merit of either preamp over the other. I bet if you questioned the manufacturer, he would be pi$$ed. Why should a user pay 15 grand for a piece of equipment when the same manufacturer markets a much cheaper piece of equipment that has been rated just as highly by a magazine!

Click to expand...

I agree, they leave that up to the listener. I take it as they are saying that both of these products can produce great music at a very high level, high enough to be considered class A. It is up to the consumer to audition and see (hear) if the differences are great enough to cause one to buy one over the other. Also, it is not just the sound that differentiates audio gear.

gmartan said:

I still buy it occasionally for the entertainment factor but since the day I had both a Creek integrated and a Unico Integrated in my den connected to new Opera Primas I can't take their reviews seriously. One made beautiful music while the other made my ears bleed. Guess which one was A rated by Stereophile?

The Unico even did a credible job with the Summits while my main system was down once I put a couple of Heath Mullard 12AU7 tubes in it.

Click to expand...

I rate Unico gear, actually. Sounds great and doesn't cost a fortune.

I posted this same question on the Stereophile board. Here is answer from the man himself:

The last MartinLogan speaker we reviewed was the Montage -- see www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/505ml -- in May 2005. The review was overall positive, but pointed out some problems. MartinLogan were sufficiently upset by the review that they decided no longer to cooperate with Stereophile by sending us further samples for review.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Click to expand...

Here is the thread on that board:

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=50055&an=0&page=0#Post50055