Stereophile recommended - No Martin Logans?

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jjay

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I was reading my Stereophile April 2008 issue and found not even the Summits were in their reccommend speakers list. :confused:Stereophile also didn't find any McIntosh amps (except for the MC275) or Magnepans worthy either. Boy, they love Vandersteen though. ;)There seems to be some bias going on with Stereophile to me.
At least they didn't forget the McIntosh MC275. Stereophile's recommended list really confuses me. Any comments?
Jim
 
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I believe their list includes ONLY components they've previously reviewed, and they haven't reviewed any ML's lately. On the other hand, I think The Absolute Sound reviewed both the Vantage and Summit, but I don't recall if they publish a similar "Recommended" list.
 
We all know about the advertising-to-recommended components relationship (and that includes all the commercial mags online and off.)

And today, the sheer numbers of manufacturers and products out there would doom any attempt at a ranking to hopless hair-splitting. When Stereophile or anyone else puts a dozen products in the A (or B or C) recommended category, it's a clear admission of this fact; and doesn't really provide a consumer with any guidance at all.

Back in the old days when there were maybe two dozen amps total (all models from all manufactures, tube and ss!) it was fun to follow the rankings. You could easily go to any store (they carried them all) and see if you agreed with the ratings. How would you do that today??

And besides, today the online forums and the excellent audio shows provide anyone interested with much better info and exposure than ever before available. That's where I always first hear about the latest/greatest w/ever. I think the whole blue-ribbon thing should be abandoned. Besides the obvious conflict of interest issues, the market is just too big to make meaningful distinctions.

There is always the equipment that will rise to, or remains at the top. Most folks know, or will soon enough learn what they are, and just as quickly realize they'll likely never be able to play in that league :(
 
Do you care what someone else recommends, or do you care what you recommend?
I do not feel I am qualified to recommend equipment to anyone as I have not demoed enough different gear. One of the great things about this site is there are qualified people which have tons of experience with different equipment. My narrow concern is that the tiny amount of gear I have heard( Martin Logan, McIntosh, Cary, and Audio Research) really opened my ears to to difference between good sound and great sound. I am just having a problem that Martin Logan was not represented. Maybe some of the brands they recommended are great, but the Vantage and Summits are the best speakers I ever listened to.
Jim
 
I do not feel I am qualified to recommend equipment to anyone as I have not demoed enough different gear. One of the great things about this site is there are qualified people which have tons of experience with different equipment. My narrow concern is that the tiny amount of gear I have heard( Martin Logan, McIntosh, Cary, and Audio Research) really opened my ears to to difference between good sound and great sound. I am just having a problem that Martin Logan was not represented. Maybe some of the brands they recommended are great, but the Vantage and Summits are the best speakers I ever listened to.
Jim

Yes, but we've all got different taste. That's why there is room for all the different types of speakers.

What is the "best speaker you've ever heard" for one person is not the same as the best speaker for the next.

What's important is that you've got the best speakers for you. So do I. If someone else out there prefers B+W, let 'em go.

To be totally fair, one is probrably NOT better than the other - just a different set of compromises.
 
Yes, but we've all got different taste. That's why there is room for all the different types of speakers.

What is the "best speaker you've ever heard" for one person is not the same as the best speaker for the next.

What's important is that you've got the best speakers for you. So do I. If someone else out there prefers B+W, let 'em go.

To be totally fair, one is probrably NOT better than the other - just a different set of compromises.
I agree with you. I was just suprised that Stereophile didn't think one of the Martin Logan speakers: Summit, Vantage, or Vista were recommended.
Jim
 
Stereophile reviewed a lower-line ML speaker a couple of years ago. They did not give it a rave review. Ever since, ML will not give them a pair of newer speakers to test. Listen for yourself. If you like the speaker, so be it!
 
The Abso!ute Sound.........................

did a review on the ML Source in the March 2008 issue. I am usually a Stereophile guy but that month TAS did a all analog issue. It was a nice read if anyone is interested. The review they did on the Source was very positive, and if memory serves me Jonathan Valin was admittedly not a ML fan, but was very impressed by these speakers. He even remarked that he wanted to be the first in line to review a "new and improved" CLS when it happens.
I myself have never heard this model, (Source) I know they are priced at around 2 G's new.

Doug - out
 
I dont recomend Stereophile either

I agree with CAP. I lost faith in the unbiased credibility of Stereophile right after the "Carver Challenge" in the 1980's, and completely turned my back on that mag after 1) Cory Greenburg and his friends left, and 2) after I asked Lewis Lipnick to explain his review of the Silver 7-t/Martin Logan Sequel combination when he wrote something to the effect of "he didn't know that ANY amp could make the Sequel sound this bad...". This was about 4 or 5 years after the "Carver Challenge had been published, and it was at the height of the personal jihad against Bob Carver in Stereophile Magazine.

I met Mr. Lipnick at an event at a Myer Emco in Rockville MD, and he basically told me that anyone who though that anything Bob Carver ever did was any good was a tone deaf idiot who didn't know anything about "real audio". My reply was that I though perhaps Mr. Lipnick had spent too much time in the orchestra pit of the Washington Symphony and he needed to use a softer reed in his oboe, because he was obviously suffering from inner-ear damage caused by blowing too hard. He was not amused, but I got a chuckle from some of the other guests who were standing within earshot...

--Richard
 
We all know about the advertising-to-recommended components relationship (and that includes all the commercial mags online and off.)

Do we? Please provide proof for this statement. I hear this a lot but no one ever has any, but anecdotal, proof. I'm not an apologist for any of the audio mags but enough is enough. Please provide some proof for your statement.

And today, the sheer numbers of manufacturers and products out there would doom any attempt at a ranking to hopless hair-splitting. When Stereophile or anyone else puts a dozen products in the A (or B or C) recommended category, it's a clear admission of this fact; and doesn't really provide a
There is always the equipment that will rise to, or remains at the top. Most folks know, or will soon enough learn what they are, and just as quickly realize they'll likely never be able to play in that league consumer with any guidance at all.

Again I disagree, and not to be contrary, but the RCs give one a place to start if looking for SOTA or lesser components. It isn't, as you correctly point out, comprehensive.

Back in the old days when there were maybe two dozen amps total (all models from all manufactures, tube and ss!) it was fun to follow the rankings. You could easily go to any store (they carried them all) and see if you agreed with the ratings. How would you do that today??

Agreed

And besides, today the online forums and the excellent audio shows provide anyone interested with much better info and exposure than ever before available. That's where I always first hear about the latest/greatest w/ever. I think the whole blue-ribbon thing should be abandoned.

The online forums? Surely you jest. The internet is the land of opinion and flame; some posters are more knowledgeable than others but any postings should be read with a healthy dose of skepticism, even this one:eek:. Regarding shows one is certainly exposed to a vastly greater selection than one could hope to find outside of L.A. or N.Y. but one still has to hunt down product for any in depth listening.

Besides the obvious conflict of interest issues, the market is just too big to make meaningful distinctions.

See above

There is always the equipment that will rise to, or remains at the top. Most folks know, or will soon enough learn what they are, and just as quickly realize they'll likely never be able to play in that league

Sad but true, much of the equipment in S or TAS are, and will remain, beyond my financial capacity to own but I can dream and gather insight into what is possible in the Hi-End.
 
Back in the old days when there were maybe two dozen amps total (all models from all manufactures, tube and ss!)(

Agree! Sorry to go off topic, BUT how can anyone go on about they "dying" high end audio industry!!

I always think about this exact statement when people carry on about the shrinking high-end audio market. Yeah, right!
 
As a long-time subscriber, I recall seeing ML products in their recommended components many times. Usually, Logans reside in the class-B products because only "full-range" speakers make it to the A-list. With the exception of the Statements, full size Logans peter out below 30 Hz. If you can get 25 or 28 Hz out of yours, then you are among the elite speaker-setter-uppers.

~VDR
 
Risabet -- I cannot provide you with hard proof of magazine/advertiser pandering, but before the great deluge of products, it was easy to see the effect: obviously top notch components (such as Wilson, Logan, Magnan, Goldmund, Wadia, Naim and too many for me to remember now) who didn't advertise in Stereophile (or hadn't yet) didn't even receive mention in Recommended C components. And today, old and unchanged products like for instance the SME V tonearm which was always a Recommended A item is nowhere to be found? Has age become a disqualifier too, along with advertising patronage?

Yes I do think the various forums provide the earliest announcements of upcoming products. And members offer some very candid assessments too -- much better than reviewers provide and you can ask members questions and (usually) get unvarnished answers. Mikey F. likes everything over $100K whatever it is; and Jeff D. (Tone) says he won't review anything he doesn't really like. Oh that's just great! He most likely didn't set it up properly and can't figure out why it doesn't sound right :confused:
 
I see this more and more, regarding the ads to reviews / recommended products ratios. Just be sure to take what they say with a healthy grain of salt. BTW, and not to take this off-topic, but the crazy acceptance/raves in the various mags for HDMI (how many versions have been tossed at us so far?) is proof enough for me that they have sold out...:(
 
And today, old and unchanged products like for instance the SME V tonearm which was always a Recommended A item is nowhere to be found? Has age become a disqualifier too?
I know we are discussing Stereophile here, but I think TAS once stated that stuff they have not listened to in a while gets automatically dropped as they cannot constantly be comparing older stuff against the newer stuff.
 
I know we are discussing Stereophile here, but I think TAS once stated that stuff they have not listened to in a while gets automatically dropped as they cannot constantly be comparing older stuff against the newer stuff.
No, Stereophile does that too; something like "it's been too long since we reviewed it" or something like that. An admission that not everything worthy has been considered; and so making the "recommendations" meaningless.

Further, I've noticed (in Stereophile at least) that the lists have become literally stuffed with products that don't belong there. Checking the list of advertisers at the back of the magazine clears up that confusion!
 
Yes I do think the various forums provide the earliest announcements of upcoming products. And members offer some very candid assessments too -- much better than reviewers provide and you can ask members questions and (usually) get unvarnished answers. Mikey F. likes everything over $100K whatever it is; and Jeff D. (Tone) says he won't review anything he doesn't really like. Oh that's just great! He most likely didn't set it up properly and can't figure out why it doesn't sound right :confused:

Always love having you tell me how I run my business.

So, lets try and set the record straight. I can't speak for Stereophile or TAS because I don't work there (any more)

What every magazine editor that actually earns a living at what they do struggles with constantly is serving two masters, the readers and the advertisers. It's tough but not impossible.

We currently have a ratio in our reviews of about 60% components from advertisers to 40% non advertisers. It used to be about 20% advertisers in the old days, but that's changed.

As for the comment about not writing about gear I don't like, I hate to come off as "argumentative" about this, but it's always put up in such a hostile manner by Neil, I don't really have much choice but to come back at it equally hard.

I've got over 30 years of hifi experience, owning it, selling it and repairing it (though I am not an EE). Our tech editor does have an EEE and a PhD in Physics though and has done consulting for almost every major manufacturer in the high end. We also have two recording engineers and a board certified audiologist on staff.

I've owned MILLIONS of dollars worth of hifi gear over that 30 year period, as has most of my staff. That's why we started TONE, we've had a lot of seat time with this stuff and with a lot of different gear too.

Another thing that adds to our familiarity is that EVERYONE on the TONE staff OWNS their reference system. Look at the recommended components list of any of the reviewers at any of the other magazines. Other than Mikey Fremer owning his stuff, most of these guys' systems are made up of whatever loaned gear they have at any given time.

In addition to the two reference systems in my studio, I have a smaller one in the house and own a few extra turntables, arms, cartridges and other electronics. I listen to them on a regular basis and always have them for comparison as additional references.

As for the comment about not being able to set up or understand a particular piece of gear, that's just kind of silly. If I came across a piece of gear that I couldn't set up, I would enlist our tech editors help or we'd call the mfr. So far, there hasn't been anything that's been beyond our scope, except maybe the Continuum, but we had that set up by the factory guy (which every Continuum owner gets) and then I had a whole day of the same factory training that a dealer would get, so I feel pretty comfortable about that table now too.

I've hand picked the people on my staff for their expertise in set up, their love of music and their diversity of the kind of sound we all prefer. Dan likes Avalons, Marc likes mini monitors and his DeVore 9's, Randy likes his Magnepans and I of course love my Martin Logan Summits. And we have just had another of our writers step up to making his reference speakers Summits after spending the weekend at our house.

I've had enough people from the hifi and the music industry over at our studio to listen what I've put together tell me I've got some of the best sound they've ever heard to be pretty confident of my abilities or any of the other people on my staff.

I've also had my room and my ears tested and know that I don't have any glitches to worry about or work around. When the folks from SonicWeld were here in November of last year, they told me it normally takes them 2-3 days to dial that system in with room correction but it only took 3 hours because my room had no major anomalies.

But back to the reasons we review...

What we can only hope to do on the best day is to relay an experience that we've had with a component in a compelling enough way, (without being too gushy like some of the others do) that YOU will want to investigate it for yourself.

No matter how much we like a component, if it doesn't work in your home/system or budget it will not be a fit.

Typically, when we get something in for review that one of us really does not like, it goes to at least a couple of the other people for a second or third opinion. As we all have somewhat different rooms and setups, if no one can make it produce what we feel is good sound, we send it back whether it costs us ad dollars or not.

I haven't had a component in thirty years "that I couldn't set up".

There is no one advertising in TONE at this point in time that I or someone on my staff hasn't done business with. There is no one in the magazine that I've accepted ad dollars from that will shaft you if you buy one of their products. You may not like Naim, or Conrad Johnson or Cardas (insert name here..) but I know that those people stand behind what they sell and that is very important to me. The last thing I want any of you to do is spend your hard earned money on something and take it in the shorts.

Which leads us to the awards thing.

Our first year, we didn't even do any. The second year, we started our exceptional value awards of which we awarded six or seven and last year I think we gave out nine and a "product of the year" award.

This year we will probably stick to nine or ten and give out a product of the year in a few categories.

We have not chosen to grade things A,B,C etc because I don't see it as valid and it's my magazine. Seriously how much confidence do you have when Stereophile gives a 1500 dollar pair of speakers a Class B rating and right next to it a 20 thousand dollar pair of speakers a Class B as well? But that's the way they do it and it's John Atkinson's magazine.

And this is why I don't waste my time with gear that I don't like. There is enough great gear out there, I don't need the ego gratification of telling you something that is perfectly good is junk.

Let's take a perfect example. I've been listening to Neil harp on me here and at the McIntosh forum every chance he gets because I don't think a McIntosh 275 sounds good with a pair of Summits. I still don't.

If anyone would have the advertising agenda to suggest this combination, it would be me. Both companies advertise in my magazine, I've gotten to know both companies personally, and I own BOTH pieces of gear.

In the end that's beside the point. If that's the combination you want in your system, it's fine with me, but I have a very hard time being constantly dissed because I don't like this one combination, nor do I see it as the path to audio nirvana. My suggestion to anyone wanting this combination has always been to test drive it first because it's not my cup of tea.

Honestly, I really don't care what anyones system is. What I do care about is that you have a smile on your face when you listen to it.

I've had big amps, small amps, tubes, solid state, class D, you name it, one of us has probably owned it or lived with it at one point in time. That's why we do what we do.

I wouldn't spend 50-80 hours a week doing this if it wasn't my lifelong passion.

When you take a magazine like TAS that typically runs about 90 pages of ads in an issue of about 170 pages, and then subtract the six pages of letters, couple pages of directories, six or eight pages of industry news, there isn't much left for content, so it's very hard for them to ever get to gear that isn't made by advertisers. By the time you cut out the fluff pages, there is rarely even 50 pages of actual content in a typical issue of TAS.

Stereophile does a lot better, they usually get close to 50/50, sometimes even a bit better.

We have it much easier being a PDF, so that we can expand and contract as we need to, but it's also been a primary goal since day one to never become even 50% advertising. Our last few issues have been over 150 pages with about 45 pages of advertising.

And to end this all, please tell me how you expect all of us to devote the time necessary to really evaluate all this gear without it being a business and a full time job? Especially in our case, where we give the content away.

The Absolute Sound and Stereophile both started out without ads, but Harry Pearson couldn't run a business and neither could J. Gordon Holt. They were great guys and huge enthusiasts that shaped the industry, but once both of those mags got bigger than little tabloids, they had to get ad dollars to stay afloat.

Again, I'd like to underscore that a hifi review is only the beginning. It's all opinion. But I get enough letters and emails every single day from all over the world (we are currently read by 112 thousand readers in 93 countries) that people enjoy what we are doing and most importantly have heard what we've heard. They have read our reviews, went out and bought the gear and enjoy it. That's all I can do.

That's why I spend time at this forum. While there is the obvious love for Martin Logan, a lot of it is to see what our readers have to say and to try to help answer setup questions, or what I think about a component with the idea that it will help someone make a purchase decision, so they can get some hifi they will enjoy as much as I like mine.

If you want my help or opinion, I'm always happy to give it. If you want to continue with the conspiracy theories, carry on. I have to believe that all of you are way too intelligent than to just go buy a component only because a hifi reviewer (myself included) says so.

That's the long version straight from the horses mouth.
 
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A favor please

Neil,

I really appreciate your observations and contributions to this site but I would like to ask a favor.

You obviously don't like Jeff D. and seem to take any opportunity to make disparaging remarks about Jeff. Witness the last two lines of your second from last post on this thread.

I'd really appreciate it if you could refrain from doing this anymore. It accomplishes nothing positive relative to purpose and spirit of this Club.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Gordon
 
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