Room Bass Problem

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benleeys

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Hi,

A frustrated guy am I. :mad: :mad:

Spent all day moving furniture, curtains and what not, but can't seem to get rid of a 10dB drop around 32Hz on my Summits. The 25Hz control set at -9dB on the speakers took care of a spike around 24Hz.

My Descent also reflects similar characteristics, but the 25 Hz control set at -12dB on the sub could not fully tame the 24Hz spike. It's still at least 5dB too high.

My room is a regular 21' x 15' x 9' and I am not really sure what alteration this room anomaly does to the bass.

Is there a doctor in the house who can suggest a cure?

Ben
 
Ben, I think that the cheapest cure might be to move them backwards/forwards, and nearer/farther apart. You probably have a standing wave, and sitting in the middle of a peak, so moving the listening position a bit around can also be an idea.
 
Ben, is it possible to try the extra tweak placement in the Summit owners manual? If you have even more room try the Cardas near field placement detailed in their website.
 
Ben, I don't have an immediate solution, but I'm curious how you determined you have a 10dB drop around 32 Hz? Are you doing room measurements with a RadioShack sound meter, or a similar computer-based setup?

The reason I ask is that I REALLY want to measure MY room response with my Summits, but am not sure how best to do it.
 
I agree with Lugano.

Wavelengths that your room will support 1st harmonic resonant frequencies at are 26.9Hz on the 21' wall, and 37.6Hz on the 15' wall. That’s right about in line with where you are experiencing your problems.

I would suggest the same thing as Lugano suggest. Try moving your speakers around. There could be some serious interaction between your walls, speakers and the subwoofer. If the two are positioned just right they will reinforce or cancel certain frequencies. If you are using a meter such as a Radio Shack sound level meter (SPL) make sure you are using the "C" weighting setting not "A". A weighting rolls of low frequencies below 500Hz and above 10KHz. C weighting covers frequencies down to about 30Hz. Turn the sub off and try moving the main speakers while you watch the meter. Get the flattest or best results you can by physically moving the main speakers first.

How are you generating the frequency...are you using a frequency generator or test CD/Record? By the way, for those who do not have a SPL meter another way this can be done is with a test CD, VU meter on a tape machine and a good microphone.

I assume the SPL meter is at the listening position. If you can get the main speakers near where you want them in sound level for the low frequencies great. Leave them there and then turn on the sub. Repeat the same test signals. Leave the main speakers set and try changing the phase on the sub as you redo the same series of tests. If that does not make a difference you may have to move the sub to a different location. To much phase change can alter other frequencies and ruin the balance. Since we're talking low frequencies expect to have to move up to a few feet in one direction or another.

My Martin Logans were in a room 24' deep, they were 56" from the rear wall (if memory serves me correctly) and I sat 7' from the wall behind me. That put about 12' between the speakers and me. Using my Radio Shack SPL Meter, I found this spot to be the flattest area to sit at. If you are up against the back wall, you are going to hear a lot of boomy bass there. Try to get your sitting out from the back if this is the case.

Sam
 
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Hi everybody,

Macho thanks for dialing into my problem.

God knows I almost broke my back shifting the Summits and that Descent beast (am a rather light-weighted (62kilo) 60-year young :D ) all over the room. But to no avail. The frequency graph might change shape here and there, but the two problem frequency points stayed.

I am looking at the frequency plot on the projector screen from the Velodyne SMS-1 which generates a test signal and plot the equalised response in real time as you move the speakers and everything else in the room around. The problem seems to be quite beyond the capability of the unit to surmount, even with the adjusters at their maximum or minimum.

It is definitely a room problem because the speakers and sub were plotted separately, and both exhibit similar characteristics. Unfortunately, I have no way of displaying the graphs here at the moment.

Sambob2 is probably right about the resonance, but since placement doesn't appear to be an option (doesn't seem to work -what kind of room have I got for myself? :mad: :mad: ) I wonder if those fancy tube traps I hear about will work for those 2 frequencies. Any experience with those are definitely welcomed.

By the way, the flooring is teak on concrete, Armstrong false ceiling with 6" airspace above filled with rockwool, shelvings for DVD/CD collection on one long side and heavy curtained windows/bookshelf on the other. Light curtained wall behind the Summits (5 ft out from curtain) covering a 2ft deep cardboard box storage space. The rear wall is concrete, half of it covered by a bookshelf. Actually, I have a pic somewhere, but I think it is too huge to post, having been taken by a 10 megapixal camera and no facility to reduce at the moment.

Sorry to bother you all with my tale of woes. Sighhhh....

Ben
 
You can get a sub EQ, SMS-1 or Behringer Feedback Destroyer (the first is better but more expensive)

Then you aren't limited to individual points to EQ, you can do it to the entire spectrum (and if your peak is at 29, you don't have to create a null at 25 to take that peak at 29)

That's my recommendation.
 
Ben,

Since you are using an SMS-1 to both measure and EQ, you already have great tools and a good bit of the answer in your system already.
As noted, positions of both speakers and listener can be juggled to try an minimize the effect of certain peaks. However, any room will have points at which not even an SMS-1 can correct the anomaly. So either move the listening position out of the peak/null or realize that there will always be some level of compromise unless you engineer and construct a totally dedicated space.

A bass trap, engineered for the particular peak you have could indeed help if you really can’t move the listening position. For your area of the World, I’m not sure what to recommend. Shipping something the size required to trap 24Hz would be cost prohibitive. Plus, it’s easy to have someone local make these, plenty of DIY plans for them on the web.
Your 24Hz peak from the sub is a symptom of room boundary reinforcement. I recommend you pull it away from the floor / wall boundary. If you have it near a corner, put it closer to the middle of the front wall (1/3), or smack in the middle.

Also, can you please tell us at what Frequencies you are crossing over the Summits to the Descent. Is there a possibility that they are both trying to reproduce the low frequencies (<60Hz) and therefore reinforcing each other?

The other thing to double and triple check is phase between the Summits and the Descent. As being out of phase at say 60Hz and in-phase at 30Hz will of course skew the numbers.
And do re-check the phase *after* the SMS-1 corrections have been applied to the sub. Most EQ’s will skew phase as they correct, so ensure that once the sub is dialed in, it is still in correct phase to the mains.

Another item that impacts this is the Speaker Delay settings in your pre-processor. Make sure they reflect your current speaker locations, and for the sub, you will need to factor in the fact that the SMS-1 adds latency (not sure how much latency it adds, but at least 1ms). So if the processor setting for the sub based on distance says 4ms of delay, change it to 3ms (or whatever, based on calculations above) to reflect the added delay of the SMS-1.

Some simple tips, hope these help.
 
Your 24Hz peak from the sub is a symptom of room boundary reinforcement. I recommend you pull it away from the floor / wall boundary. If you have it near a corner, put it closer to the middle of the front wall (1/3), or smack in the middle.

Also, can you please tell us at what Frequencies you are crossing over the Summits to the Descent. Is there a possibility that they are both trying to reproduce the low frequencies (<60Hz) and therefore reinforcing each other?

The other thing to double and triple check is phase between the Summits and the Descent. As being out of phase at say 60Hz and in-phase at 30Hz will of course skew the numbers.
And do re-check the phase *after* the SMS-1 corrections have been applied to the sub. Most EQ’s will skew phase as they correct, so ensure that once the sub is dialed in, it is still in correct phase to the mains.

Another item that impacts this is the Speaker Delay settings in your pre-processor. Make sure they reflect your current speaker locations, and for the sub, you will need to factor in the fact that the SMS-1 adds latency (not sure how much latency it adds, but at least 1ms). So if the processor setting for the sub based on distance says 4ms of delay, change it to 3ms (or whatever, based on calculations above) to reflect the added delay of the SMS-1.
[/UNQUOTE]

Thanks for your input, Jonathan.

The Summits are 4ft from the backwall and 3ft from the sidewalls, 6ft apart (inner panel edge). The sub is currently just off-center of the room and also 4ft from the backwall. But like I said before, I have been shifting it all over the room with little effect.

Descent is only used for LFE (processor crossed over at 80Hz) when playing movie. My measurements were taken individually, not both working together.
That's how I can tell they exhibit similar characteristics in the room.

I am not sure at the moment about the phase aspect, since I have not taken measurements of them working together. Am just trying to get them performing right individually before taking a look at how they do together. By the way, when measuring, the speakers are not connected to the preamp/processor. For source, they are only fed the test signal from the SMS-1; the response picked up by the mic at listening position and fed back to the SMS-1 to generate the graph on the screen.

On deeper reflection, Jon, I think I am lucky the peak and dip points are at such low frequencies with the Summits that many respectable speakers can only dream about. The good part is the output is surprisingly flat from around 40Hz up. Of course, I can't tell with the SMS-1 how the upper bass fare/low mid, but it sounds good to my pair of tin ears. Still, I wonder how badly the problem is affecting the overall sound and am anxious to get it right. You'll agree that a +-10dB off is a lot to accept.

Ben
 
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Ben,
=/- 10dB is a lot!

I still strongly suspect it is room gain causing your problem. Somewhere the interaction of the bass drivers and the room are reinforcing or cancelling bass frequecies below 40Hz. I do not envy you having to move all that weight around so many times.

Unless you haven't already considered this: Without finding a suitable physical location as a resolution, if possible I would go to absorbers in the room. Most likely larger ones in the front corners of the room and smaller in the rear. I don't know the asthetic limitations you have in your household but if you are free to do this, that is the way I would go. Definetly contact a technical person at the place you choose to consider (if you do) so that he/she will determine the right size tuned to your problem frequency and have a narrow enough bandwidth so as not to interfere with other frequencies. Also the size must be tuned to the amplitude according to the peak you are trying to deal with attenuating. Yeah 10 dB is a lot and will definetly affect the balance of the sound in your room.
Sam
 
Hi everybody,

God knows I almost broke my back shifting the Summits and that Descent beast (am a rather light-weighted (62kilo) 60-year young :D ) all over the room. But to no avail. The frequency graph might change shape here and there, but the two problem frequency points stayed.

Ben

Hi,
Another approach that works with bass frequencies is to put the subwoofer at the listening position, and then move the microphone around to the various positions that you'd consider putting the sub. The frequency response is the same (at bass frequencies), and the mic is much easier to move than the sub.

Peter
 
Free Realtraps test tones

Researching ways to easily (i.e. cheaply) check my rooms bass response, I stumbled upon this FREE d/l of test tones. It includes mp3's across the entire frequency spectrum, but you can just d/l the one's you want. Ideally you would measure the room response with the classic RadioShack sound meter, but for a quickie test, just have a listen. You can copy them to a CD, or if you have a Squeezebox, as I do, play them directly off your computer. I was pleasantly surprised that my system sounds fairly flat from 20-100 Hz. I'll do actual measurements when I have more free time.

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
 
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Ben,
=/- 10dB is a lot!

I still strongly suspect it is room gain causing your problem. Somewhere the interaction of the bass drivers and the room are reinforcing or cancelling bass frequecies below 40Hz. I do not envy you having to move all that weight around so many times.

Unless you haven't already considered this: Without finding a suitable physical location as a resolution, if possible I would go to absorbers in the room. Most likely larger ones in the front corners of the room and smaller in the rear. I don't know the asthetic limitations you have in your household but if you are free to do this, that is the way I would go. Definetly contact a technical person at the place you choose to consider (if you do) so that he/she will determine the right size tuned to your problem frequency and have a narrow enough bandwidth so as not to interfere with other frequencies. Also the size must be tuned to the amplitude according to the peak you are trying to deal with attenuating. Yeah 10 dB is a lot and will definetly affect the balance of the sound in your room.
Sam

Yea, Sam, it is definitely a room problem. No doubt about it, since both the Summits and the Descent played separately display the same characteristics. Am going to experiment with some absorbers/reflectors on the walls and corners of the room. Hopefully, I can return here soon to announce some good news for posterity. Thanks for your advice.

Ben
 
Hi,
Another approach that works with bass frequencies is to put the subwoofer at the listening position, and then move the microphone around to the various positions that you'd consider putting the sub. The frequency response is the same (at bass frequencies), and the mic is much easier to move than the sub.

Peter

Peter,

Of course! Stupid me shud have thought of it. LOL :eek: :eek: Thanks.

Ben
 
Researching ways to easily (i.e. cheaply) check my rooms bass response, I stumbled upon this FREE d/l of test tones. It includes mp3's across the entire frequency spectrum, but you can just d/l the one's you want. Ideally you would measure the room response with the classic RadioShack sound meter, but for a quickie test, just have a listen. You can copy them to a CD, or if you have a Squeezebox, as I do, play them directly off your computer. I was pleasantly surprised that my system sounds fairly flat from 20-100 Hz. I'll do actual measurements when I have more free time.

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Hey sleepysurf,

Thanks for the lead. Should come in useful when I want to check out the rest of the frequency spectrum. Using the RadioShack meter is fine, but nothing beats a graphical presentation on your screen real time.

Ben
 
Researching ways to easily (i.e. cheaply) check my rooms bass response, I stumbled upon this FREE d/l of test tones. .....

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
There is also some great software out there for reasonable prices (even free) to aid in checking room responses without playing every tone, writing it down, and then graphing. A couple that come to mind for PC are ETF and Room EQ Wizard. There is also one for MAC that I forget the name. Here are links for you:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
http://www.etfacoustic.com/

Dan
 
There is also some great software out there for reasonable prices (even free) to aid in checking room responses without playing every tone, writing it down, and then graphing. A couple that come to mind for PC are ETF and Room EQ Wizard. There is also one for MAC that I forget the name. Here are links for you:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
http://www.etfacoustic.com/

Dan

Thanks for the lead, Dan. Will check it out. How nice it wud be if only we can simply pay for the hardware, connect them up, turn them on and plonk youself into your favourite seat and enjoy. :D
 
Eureka! Cause of 25Hz spike found.

Thought you good people would like to know I finally found the cause of the 25Hz spike in my room.

The other evening, while playing The Music of The Grand Canyon (Real Music) which have loads of low frequency waves, the doors of my wall cabinets started rattling like a machine gun. It got me thinking (not that I ever stopped to do so :D ). Got hold of a screw driver and took out all 7 doors. Ran the SMS-1 and ........ the spike was no more!

Hah! Only problem now is my collection of girly mags is exposed for all the see. :(
 
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