Montis or Ethos ?

Hello everybody!

Let me give you a short summary of my experiences with ML speakers.

Last December I decided to buy an ML Ethos. They sound fine and heavenly
with big stage and delicate highs. Bass sound good ( - 3db ) in my room.
So, I thought the issue of speakers was settled. I enjoyed them every day.

But suddenly ( 5 weeks ago ) I had a failure on one speaker... my beloved Ethos was quiet!

My dealer removed both electronic modules and sent them to be repaired.
After receiving the Ethos back ( 2 weeks ago ) the first sounds were disappointing.
It sounded covered and dull. Where were all the wonderful highs?

Immediately I called my salesperson. He mentioned that the Ethos needs some
time to play in ( 200 hours ) after changing the electronics. But I didn't believe him.
( because I thought the electronics is only responsible for bass and not for the panel. )
Nevertheless he made me a good offer to upgrade to Montis. He had a demo pair which
he was willing to install at home. I agreed.

Now I have the Ethos and the Montis in my living room and can compare them calmly.
( Currently the Ethos played about 100 hours ).

My findings:

First I thought the Montis is better overall. More detailed bass and very clear sound.
I was pleased with the huge soundstage and the possibility to play loud ( very loud ) with powerful bass.
But when the first rage of enthusiasm had flattened down I missed something in the music.
I had to admit, that I normally don't sit in the center ( sweetspot ) of the speakers.
Therefore the stereoimage must be very wide. With the Ethos I never had a problem with this.

Another point: The highs... with the Ethos the highs are ( fortunatley they returned after 100 hours! )
more clearly audible. ( Example: when you listen to "TOK TOK TOK - Revolution 69 - Dear Prudence" you
can hear a snick in the background ( triangle ) more detailed with Ethos.)
I listened hours after hours to my favorite songs.
Sometimes I thought Montis was better but mostly my preference was Ethos.


Long story short... the Montis will be returned to the dealer and I'm happy with my Ethos again.

Greetings
Udo

Very interesting Udo ...never would think the Ethos would out-sound the Montis. Myabe you should give the Montis further listen as it breaks in a little more. Its bigger and wider panel should be better than the one from the Ethos.

Montis is the same as Spire. High end should sound the same as spire. I am confused why you found the ethos superior.


J

jmschnur said:

Panel is the same as Spire. High end should sound the same.


J

Click to expand...

Nope ...Spire and Montis and Summit X have panels which are 44" high x 11.3" wide. Ethos is 44" high x 9.2". The wider panels with greater surface area should sound more detailed than the narrower ones.

dmusoke said:

Nope ...Spire and Montis and Summit X have panels which are 44" high x 11.3" wide. Ethos is 44" high x 9.2". The wider panels with greater surface area should sound more detailed than the narrower ones.

Click to expand...

...they should.
Yesterday my salesmen picked up the Montis. After "blind" listenings ( I can toggle beetween them interruption-free ) they also were astonished thay the Ethos is more detailed. They recommended to keep the Ethos.

I listened to Martin Logan speakers several times.
Summit - Ethos (see thread http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?13279-ML-Summit-vs.-Ethos&p=142986#post142986)
Montis alone - sound wonderful
Ethos - Montis - Summit X ( Montis was the winner )

Could it be, that there are slight variations of the panels?

here my setup for testing

mac_tweety said:

Could it be, that there are slight variations of the panels?

Click to expand...

Actually, the variations more likely come from the differences in bass response. How your ears hear the highs can be directly effected by the lower frequencies. On one speaker, you may give up depth or or definition in the lows, but it may actually result in your hearing more details in the highs. This is all affected even more by speaker placement and interaction with the room. Along those lines, mac_tweety, the setup you have designed for testing practically ensures that even identical speakers will sound very different. Martin Logan speakers are highly sensitive to placement. You have one set of speakers set about three or four feet wider than the other set in total distance. This changes the triangle distance to listening position and necessary toe-in of the speaker, which all in turn affects how the speaker interacts with the room around it. Your decisions on which speakers sounded better were probably colored by which speakers were better positioned in relation to the walls and the listener in your room than anything else.

To add to Rich's comments, the furniture between you and the speakers does not help.

Rich said:

You have one set of speakers set about three or four feet wider than the other set in total distance. This changes the triangle distance to listening position and necessary toe-in of the speaker, which all in turn affects how the speaker interacts with the room around it.

Click to expand...

Hi Rich,

the triangles are much the same. But that is not the problem.
In my listening room the Ethos sounds very good and I enjoy it.

I've heard 3 pairs of Montis. Two of them sound good but the third ( unfortunatley that one I want to buy ) sounds a little bit worse ( only little nuances ). So I think there must be variations of the panels.

mac_tweety said:

Hi Rich,

the triangles are much the same.

Click to expand...

No, they aren't. The axis that the speakers sit on is about four foot longer with one pair of speakers than the other, requiring more toe-in of that pair of speakers, which, of course affects not only the front wave, but the timing of the rear wave bouncing off the back and side walls. Also, the pair of speakers on the outside has their woofer box located closer to the corners of the room, which will result in different bass response, which of course affects your perception of the higher frequencies as well. Also to Bernard's point, it would appear from your picture that the furniture is partially obscuring the direct sound coming from the outside speakers to the listening chair. Whether or not this has affected your views of the Montis vs. Ethos I can't say, but I am simply telling you that this is no way to compare speakers and get an accurate result.

Rich, it looks like from the picture he's set up correctly when comparing speakers by keeping left/right consistent and not putting one pair flanking an inside pair:

[ETHOS] [MONTIS] [------------] [ETHOS] [MONTIS]

So the speakers should be at the same distance apart, respectively, from the listener when switching back and forth. Not sure if you caught that, or maybe I'm missing something...

However, the Montis that's closer to the right wall will have different bass characteristics because of the proximity to that corner, but may be able to adjust the bass down slightly for a pretty good comparison.

~J

Frankly Mac and with all due respect, I really don't know how you can make an informed decision with your current set up for reasons noted above. The couches have a substantial impact (negative IMO) on the final sound that you hear, especially in the bass / mid bass , which will subsequently impact the the mid range and top frequency responses.

Rich is spot on regarding speaker positioning and subsequent sound.

Good luck.

GG

PS: All other things being equal, the Montis should clearly outperform the Ethos.

-justin- said:

Rich, it looks like from the picture he's set up correctly when comparing speakers by keeping left/right consistent and not putting one pair flanking an inside pair:

[ETHOS] [MONTIS] [------------] [ETHOS] [MONTIS]

So the speakers should be at the same distance apart, respectively, from the listener when switching back and forth. Not sure if you caught that, or maybe I'm missing something...
~J

Click to expand...

Thanks, Justin. I did miss that. That would alleviate some of my concerns, although it would make positioning and toe in that much more critical if you were going to sit in the same position and switch back and forth between the two. It would also mean that the furniture Bernard refers to would have an even bigger impact on the sound differences heard between the two speakers. Still not ideal, but then I understand that it is pretty difficult to find a perfect setup to ideally compare two speakers in one's home system.

Gordon Gray said:

Frankly Mac and with all due respect, I really don't know how you can make an informed decision with your current set up for reasons noted above.

Click to expand...

Very simple... I trust my ears.
In my room, the circumstances are the same for both. And the Ethos sounds definitely better than Montis.

Maybe the Montis I heard has a defect ( that was my question to the panels ... other Montis I've heard sounded better ).

Merely offering observations assuming product is functioning properly.

I don't doubt your hearing. I do think you have room problems, that you are not acknowledging, that impact the sound.

Whatever.

GG

Hola...with all respect too, I believe that the Montis model outperforms the Ethos model...so, if the Ethos is doing better in your room, it is ok. But, it is, because you had a faulty Montis speaker set. Enjoy your Ethos, they are too, a truly hi-end product with lots of fun to use and listen. I bet you are re-discovering all your music collection again. Happy listening!

Hola Roberto,

I enjoy my Ethos every day.:music:
The Ethos has a wonderful panel and I wouldn't miss it.
The only thing is ( after listening to Montis ) a little lack of bass.
I'm thinking about a sub for the Ethos. Any recommendations?

2 depth i's would do the trick, they sound excellent!!. I used to have 1 depth, but prefer the 2 Depth i's to just running 1 sub. If you only run 1 sub, I found it worked best dead center between the mmartin logan speakers.
Greg

Hello,

I tried a Dynamo 1000 ( which my salesman has in his store ) but the result was not so satisfying.
Listening quietly the bass was not noticable. Playing loud the bass was too slow ( in comparison to Ethos ).
He tries to organize a Depht I or Grotto I.:rocker:

Why not try to optimize the setup for the Montis independantly from the setup of the Ethos. So setup one pair at a time, making sure setup is best for both pairs. It's hard to optimize the setup for two pairs at once, as one pair will always be in a worse spot than the other pair. Only because of the bigger Montis panels, they need more care with placement. A bigger panel normally means more distance from the walls etc.