Martin Logan's ..power cable choice.

I don't want to open a can of worms, but I have gone from being a 'sceptic' to a 'believer' in "good power cables".
I have a scientific background, but have had to 'leave my science at the door' as to why this works..lots of unproven theories out there.

I have had significant gains from power cable replacements in other areas of the Stereo, but nothing from the CLS/CLS2a.
CLS current demand is pretty infinitesimal, but still a big plane of dc (and probably a bit of wash through ac) at the Mylar.

Just wondering if anyone has had any results with cable changes in these or the Hybrid speakers?

I suppose the worms are out of the can now?..LOL

Many worms are out there. Numerous threads / posts on this issue. Just use the "search" function and get comfortable.

GG

Gordon Gray said:

Many worms are out there. Numerous threads / posts on this issue. Just use the "search" function and get comfortable.

GG

Click to expand...

Get comfortable eating worms ?

Reading that is.

GG

I am using Foundation Research LC 1's which have a built in conditioner. They made a substancial improvement. The ML dealer I bought my Odyssey's from rcommended them, even though he wasn't a Foundation Research dealer.

His exact words were,"They were the best pc's for Martin Logans" I bought 2 pairs shortly after that and was very happy I took his advice.

http://www.bluecircle.com/index.php?page_id=9552 makes a similar cord for Martin Logans as well with built in conditioning.

Worms and Wires

GDSA said:

I don't want to open a can of worms, but I have gone from being a 'sceptic' to a 'believer' in "good power cables".
I have a scientific background, but have had to 'leave my science at the door' as to why this works..lots of unproven theories out there.

I have had significant gains from power cable replacements in other areas of the Stereo, but nothing from the CLS/CLS2a.
CLS current demand is pretty infinitesimal, but still a big plane of dc (and probably a bit of wash through ac) at the Mylar.

Just wondering if anyone has had any results with cable changes in these or the Hybrid speakers?

I suppose the worms are out of the can now?..LOL

Click to expand...

There is a "science" to power cord design and construction. However, it does not always translate into better sound with your specific components. I have replaced all my cords and cables with after market ones. Before I did that, I compared several demo cords to see which ones made the most difference for the better. The ultimate judgment comes from your ears not from specs or reviews using gear different from your own. There is one company in the US, the Cable Company that does allow borrowing more than one cord at a time. I don't think that you need pricey cords to start with. Most of the high end cable manufacturers trickle down some of the technology in their best cords to the more reasonably priced ones. Another thing to consider is adding a power conditioner to your system. This will make a big difference if your power varies through the day (most electrical grids do) and prevent significant swings or surges from damaging your gear. Again you could email the Cable Company (www.cableco.com) for suggestions.
Good Luck

Nothing surprises me any more. Just ask Gordon about my recent speaker wire revelation. I've resigned myself to "if it sounds good, don't get too wound up about why, just enjoy the music."

GDSA said:

I don't want to open a can of worms, but I have gone from being a 'sceptic' to a 'believer' in "good power cables".
I have a scientific background, but have had to 'leave my science at the door' as to why this works..lots of unproven theories out there.

Click to expand...

Bummer Auto,

I was recently in your neighborhood. Would have been nice to touch base.

Glad you are using those things on the side of your head to make audio decisions. All too often, we get caught up in the techno talk and forget about why we are involved in this wonderful hobby in the first place.

GG

PS: Babydoc's advice is spot on. Use the Cable Company and audition before you buy.

I did not notice any improvement nor degradation when I tried different power cords on my Spires. I wanted to and was very critical during the audition of two different wires.

I do use power conditioners on my entire rig (Richard Gray) so it is possible that the conditioners eliminated the desire and or perceived need to upgrade wires.

So, in using the conditioners I found the stock wires to be fine for me. Who'd have thunk it!!

Gordon

I use Signal Cable magic power cables on my CLS IIz's. I purchased these used off of Agon. I just wanted to upgrade the stock cords for little investment.

I was just thinking about this. I'm not a huge believer in wires...I do believe the thicker the wire, the better it is for instantaneous current draw.

I am trying out the 14awg monoprice cables. My theory is I'm running on a 15amp circuit which uses 14awg wire, so might as well continue it all the way to the equipment. I also need to make sure the plug contact points are also providing enough contact surface area...hard to judge though.

If I was using 20amp then it would need to be 12awg. Or course I should consider running a dedicated 20amp (or more) line..that would be better.

As far as cables having a positive affect or not, just check internally what gauge wire is uses going from the power plug to the actual circuit board....beyond that nothing makes sense...unless you upgrade that as well.

Anyhow, will let you guys know if I notice anything with the new wires. I may hack one up just to see how the internal construction is.

So Shak,

If you can't measure it (cable sonic differences) , it doesn't exist?

GG

I use to think swapping out power cables was more of a mind thing. With the addition of my "new" SL3's - I am now putting power cables on the top of my list.....system is finally decent enough to start worrying about those things

Well I started making my own heavy cables from commercial 2.5mm2 shielded cables and poo poo'ed the thought that it could make any diff. (except shielding (EMI) and current draw).
Then I inhereted some OCC copper cables with the Halcros.
When I compared this cable on my CD (easiest and fastest to do quick A/B with for me) I was gobsmacked how much better it was (in a number of ways) than the industrial cable I had been using. Nearly every power cable sounded different in some way.
I borrowed (try before buy) an expensive OCC silver cable and the difference again was clearly apparent...I bought it and feel it was money well spent and use it (I think to best advantage) on my Pre Amp.
I have about 5 "good-reasonably good " cables (I rate them all differently) because I can't justify getting all of what I think is best in my syst.

BUT

I have yet to hear anything significant (albeit limited testing done) with the CLS power cable choice.
Presently running commercial 4mm2 shielded cable that came with some equipment (a cable I liked a lot better than my homemade ones) to the CLS and they still sound the same.

It is a fascinating area.

The problem is that the "experts" have often gone in divergent directions with the science (or experiments) and still ended up with fine cabling.

OCC?/ Conductor choice?/Single strand?/ Large diameter?/ strand geometry?/dielectric differences?/ cable damping?/ discrete shielding(or not)?/connectors?.....ad infinitum..LOL

Who's a poor boy to believe without wasting a lot of coin?

Gordon Gray said:

So Shak,

If you can't measure it (cable sonic differences) , it doesn't exist?

GG

Click to expand...

I'm assuming no sophisticated power conditioners here...no filters...etc etc...just the wire.

I think there is way to much going otherwise for the power cable to affect much.

Let's define your local step-down transformer as the last leg in clean electricity. Then you have the wire coming into your house, then the line from the breaker box to your outlet, and then finally your outlet to your device.

I don't see how the last 6 feet of wire going to your device can really "improve" anything. You essentially are continuing your outlet wire by 6 feet...so the wire needs to ideally be the same. If you want to improve it, improve it all the way up the chain.

Not to mention once that 6 feet of wire is done, then the internal wiring, internal transformer, etc etc etc are also factors. I think the internals are much more of a factor hence the existence of audiophile equipment.

The only variable is that the last 6 feet isn't continuous, so the outlet, plug connection, and the C13 connector going to the device is important. And by important I mean that the transitions should be the same.

I can say it another way....what if we just took out the outlet, and connect that wire directly to the internal transformer of the device...

Wouldn't that be the best?

Gordon Gray said:

Many worms are out there. Numerous threads / posts on this issue. Just use the "search" function and get comfortable.

GG

Click to expand...

Wire and power cord threads always make you wonder why Martin Logan and other high end manufactuers sell their products complete with inadequate AC wire

wallacefl said:

Wire and power cord threads always make you wonder why Martin Logan and other high end manufactuers sell their products complete with inadequate AC wire

Click to expand...

Hah....this is the same conversation that occurs in car forums about power mods .

Shak,

Have you seen recent ads by Shunyata Research and their test results on various gage power cords?

Their tests seem to indicate that thicker gage wire provides improvements in power / current delivery.

I'm not a tech type but anecdotally, it would seem improved power / current delivery should result in better sound.

GG

Gordon Gray said:

Shak,

Have you seen recent ads by Shunyata Research and their test results on various gage power cords?

Their tests seem to indicate that thicker gage wire provides improvements in power / current delivery.

I'm not a tech type but anecdotally, it would seem improved power / current delivery should result in better sound.

GG

Click to expand...

I have Shunyata's on my CD, Pre, and on the power conditioner...and a Krell Vector on my amp. I want to swap out the cords on the Summit X's. Any experience with ML's own upgraded cord developed for the CLX's? They are quite reasonable. I have a pair of Transparent Super hanging around that sounded awful on just about everything...including the Summit's, but I was shocked at how the cords had an effect on the sound! Thanks, Beach.

Gordon Gray said:

Shak,

Have you seen recent ads by Shunyata Research and their test results on various gage power cords?

Their tests seem to indicate that thicker gage wire provides improvements in power / current delivery.

I'm not a tech type but anecdotally, it would seem improved power / current delivery should result in better sound.

GG

Click to expand...

Hi Gordon, the name is Amir. I need to fix my sig accordingly later.

I tried finding their tests on their website. I found some material, but if there is something specific you think I should read, please send me a link.

I completely agree that thicker gauge wire provide greater current delivery.

The question is if in their tests, were they going thicker than what was coming into the outlet? If they were, then the question is what is the setup on the backend.

If your backend is outlet single wire to breaker, and 10awg all the way (for example), then your power cable is clearly the weak link to providing proper current. Upgrading it will improve current/power delivery and could provide better sound, depending on how the amplifier is designed.

And yes...if the power cable is going nearby other electronics and what not, a shielded cable would be better because it wouldn't pick up noise, and wouldn't generate noise into other cables and wires. Have you ever had a non power wire sit really close to a power wire, you notice that after a while it picks up a charge?

The issue is that thicker cables, with good quality plugs, and proper shielding shouldn't cost a mint.

I think of it this way....
If you have a 2 lane highway (no exits no entrance) suddenly widens to a 4 lane highway. Does that do anything?