SteveInNC
Well-known member
According to this article from Audioholics, Lexicon stuck an Oppo BDP-83 in their own chasis, then attempted to sell it for $3500. 
Lexicon pawns off an Oppo BDP83 as theirs?
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Statman
Well-known member
According to this article from Audioholics, Lexicon stuck an Oppo BDP-83 in their own chasis, then attempted to sell it for $3500.
They're not the only ones. Ayre's DX-5 is Oppo based and so is Theta's supposedly upcoming unit. They both are still using some of the internals but are adding a heavier chassis and other modifications including power supply changes to justify the cost. Even Charles Hansen on the AVS forum told a potential buyer that his DX-5 is a great unit but also said the Oppo was a good unit in itself and would probably suffice for video playback.
since the anti-high-end used pictures, I'll do the same.
Here the oppo:
and now the ayre ( it does use the oppo transport):
Whatever is happening here, it doesn't look good for lexicon. Hope for you that you don't have used lexicon for sale.
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Statman
Well-known member
I just started reading the article. Lexicon basically just dropped the Oppo in a chassis and are calling it their new Blu Ray player?:duh:
Head will be cut!
amey01
Well-known member
It is instances like this that rip the very legs on which we audiophiles stand out from under us!
It makes it harder and harder to justify what we do for a hobby when there are sharks/snake oil generators around like this.
Even if they added some power supply caps, a bit of shielding, a few WBT terminals and a few other things they usually like to do (oh, and that faceplate), it would:
1: What would be the point - it would hardly improve the sound.....
and;
2: Would justify a $100 or so increase in price - not a $3,000 increase!
BUT - you also have to blame the consumerists for making the market for something like this......there are just too many people with more money than sense.
It makes it harder and harder to justify what we do for a hobby when there are sharks/snake oil generators around like this.
Even if they added some power supply caps, a bit of shielding, a few WBT terminals and a few other things they usually like to do (oh, and that faceplate), it would:
1: What would be the point - it would hardly improve the sound.....
and;
2: Would justify a $100 or so increase in price - not a $3,000 increase!
BUT - you also have to blame the consumerists for making the market for something like this......there are just too many people with more money than sense.
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Tj Bassi
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Theta did that a number of years ago with their Voyager laserdisc player. If you took the top off you found an entire Pioneer LD player, chassis and all (the Theta was a enormous unit). They claimed to have designed their own digital processing stage which somehow added up to a unit that retailed for over 9k (!). The Voyager did not fare well compared to other high-end players at the time.
Allen Wright
Member
OPPO etc
Gents, this practice has been going on forever - at least since SONY/Philips/whoever instituted huge license fees to be allowed to manufacture hi-tech players.
We would have loved to put out a Vacuum State SACD/CD player but the "Scarlet Book" license cost of over $30,000 was a huge stumbling block. Second, to get the best transport out there (Esoteric) one had to order 100 units (minimum) at $500 each = $50,000.
That's $80, 000 spent even before getting the exclusive SACD decoder chips from SONY (we didn't even ask about that cost) and that's before the newmachine is even started to be designed!
Far far easier to take a van down to the local discount store, make a deal for 50 cheapish but worthwhile players, toss the packaging and outer chassis and build up from there with your own "audiophile mods". Because SONY/Pioneer etc have already paid the license fee on that player, and supplied the transport and decoder chips, there are no other major costs.
But all manufacturing has a minimun margin and if you add less than that you'll go broke - and AYRE/Lexicon etc are most likely paying near retail for their base machines - which includes all of the original manufacturers profit, plus the distributors profit, plus the discount store's profit.
So a $500 OPPO can easily get to $3000, especially when you add in the hi-end retail store's margin, which normally is WAY higher than that of the discount store. So don't get all upset at a $3000 tweaked OPPO.
Vacuum State does it another way, we Upgrade your player, so only need to charge for our new parts and work - and don't need to factor in a % on the original purchase price.
Regards, Allen (Vacuum State)
Gents, this practice has been going on forever - at least since SONY/Philips/whoever instituted huge license fees to be allowed to manufacture hi-tech players.
We would have loved to put out a Vacuum State SACD/CD player but the "Scarlet Book" license cost of over $30,000 was a huge stumbling block. Second, to get the best transport out there (Esoteric) one had to order 100 units (minimum) at $500 each = $50,000.
That's $80, 000 spent even before getting the exclusive SACD decoder chips from SONY (we didn't even ask about that cost) and that's before the newmachine is even started to be designed!
Far far easier to take a van down to the local discount store, make a deal for 50 cheapish but worthwhile players, toss the packaging and outer chassis and build up from there with your own "audiophile mods". Because SONY/Pioneer etc have already paid the license fee on that player, and supplied the transport and decoder chips, there are no other major costs.
But all manufacturing has a minimun margin and if you add less than that you'll go broke - and AYRE/Lexicon etc are most likely paying near retail for their base machines - which includes all of the original manufacturers profit, plus the distributors profit, plus the discount store's profit.
So a $500 OPPO can easily get to $3000, especially when you add in the hi-end retail store's margin, which normally is WAY higher than that of the discount store. So don't get all upset at a $3000 tweaked OPPO.
Vacuum State does it another way, we Upgrade your player, so only need to charge for our new parts and work - and don't need to factor in a % on the original purchase price.
Regards, Allen (Vacuum State)
DrJRapp
Well-known member
Has anyone purchased the Oppo BDP 83SE (special edition) yet? While I don't really want to chage the direction of this thread, I think the question is close enough since the thread is about how other mfgrs are modifying the BDP 83 for their own labeling.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
I mainly feed my BDP-83 digital outs to my Benchmark DAC, but now that I have a few SACD's, I'm seriously thinking I'll get the Oppo SE upgrade. Might as well keep the warranty intact (in fact, Oppo resets the start date of the warranty to when you get the upgrade).
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Bummer, it looks like the discounted upgrade offer for the "early adopters" expired 12/31/09...
http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/blu-ray-BDP-83SE-UpgradeOption.aspx
http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/blu-ray-BDP-83SE-UpgradeOption.aspx
Pioneer would not license anyone to build LD players, so everyone who had one modded a pioneer. Still doesn't justify a$9k price increase though.
tonepub
Senior Member
The Ayre player looks like a pretty substantial change from the stock Oppo. I know they mentioned that they've changed the power supply, did a lot with D/A conversion, etc etc and the pictures certainly reveal a big change as well.
I seem to recall the only thing they said they kept was the actual transport and as Mr. Wright keenly pointed out, they sidestep all of the licensing issues going that way.
It's kind of like building codes in Southern California...
If you build a house from scratch, you have a lot of issues, but if you tear an existing house down to one wall, it's a "remodel" and subject to fewer fines and building codes.
Sounds like a smart move on Ayre's part to me. Knowing their past comittment to keeping drive units in stock and upgrades, etc. I'm guessing this would be the one to bank on...
I seem to recall the only thing they said they kept was the actual transport and as Mr. Wright keenly pointed out, they sidestep all of the licensing issues going that way.
It's kind of like building codes in Southern California...
If you build a house from scratch, you have a lot of issues, but if you tear an existing house down to one wall, it's a "remodel" and subject to fewer fines and building codes.
Sounds like a smart move on Ayre's part to me. Knowing their past comittment to keeping drive units in stock and upgrades, etc. I'm guessing this would be the one to bank on...
DrJRapp
Well-known member
Really?....While I think I get the essence of your analogy, I think you may need to check facts.....if you leave 1 wall up it allows flexibility in Zoning ie:...building setbacks, FAR, building height can conform to prior zoning regs that the original house was built under rather than newer "more restrictive" zoning. However, it's nearly universal throughout the US now that any renovation in excess of 25% of the assessed valuation of the property ( over any 12 month period of time) requires everything be brought up to current building codes.
The better analogy might be that the drive units (the parts subject to Sony's "TAX") have already been "Taxed" once, and cannot be "taxed" again.
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In Michigan we have our own code based on the International code. Unless you are increasing structural loads more than around 7%, the existing "structure" is good to go. This has not prevented building departments from demanding existing framing drawings of joists which have stood the test of time, nor requesting calculations for all new work. The codes are the same, fines are typically double of permits although that varies by state/community.
Ten years ago under BOCA 1993-1999 any change of use or six months of unoccupied space in a commercial building meant it had to be brought up to NEW code (excluding stairs/elevators). However the International code both commercial and residential to the best of my knowledge has no such provisions (all NEW work must be to code). If your state has such provisions they are state or zoning based not International code based.
Great forum for professionals to ask questions in or conduct your "search":
http://www4.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
FYI: In Michigan we also have the 2006 Michigan Rehabilitation Code for Existing Buildings (covers commercial buildings):
http://www.bookmarki.com/2006-Michigan-Existing-Buildings-Rehab-Code-p/9781580016513.htm
Back on topic: the topic of this thread is making the rounds of the Internet.
Proof:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-...on-blu-ray-player-really-500-oppo-inside.html
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sleepysurf
Well-known member
Getting back on-topic, Gene DellaSala at Audioholics re-tested the Lexicon unit for multi-channel performance, and found it actually underperforms the Oppo, because Oppo has released a number of firmware updates to address bass management issues, whereas Lexicon has not!
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=675834&postcount=81
As this whole escapade is garnering attention all over the web, there will be significant long-term fallout for high-end brands that "rebadge" OEM gear and then sell at a much higher price point, as well as those online or print reviewers who wax eloquently about such "upgraded" components. Hopefully, legitimate "modders" like Allen Wright and Dan Wright, will start listing their component upgrades and/or test-bench specs that prove why their product is better than the stock unit. IMHO, Lexicon's continued reticence to "come clean" on this matter has permanently tarnished their reputation, if not totally jeopardizing their long-term viability.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=675834&postcount=81
As this whole escapade is garnering attention all over the web, there will be significant long-term fallout for high-end brands that "rebadge" OEM gear and then sell at a much higher price point, as well as those online or print reviewers who wax eloquently about such "upgraded" components. Hopefully, legitimate "modders" like Allen Wright and Dan Wright, will start listing their component upgrades and/or test-bench specs that prove why their product is better than the stock unit. IMHO, Lexicon's continued reticence to "come clean" on this matter has permanently tarnished their reputation, if not totally jeopardizing their long-term viability.
asindc
Well-known member
I think this effort by Lexicon is the latest example of a outdated business model being exposed in today's communications environment. Long live the interwebs...
Kruppy
Well-known member
This is a double edged sword as there is a ton of miss-information out there too.
asindc
Well-known member
Lord knows that is true. However, it seems that audioholics has gone the extra step to verify its claim (accusation?) for all to see. Hence, the uproar over it. I don't know if the upgrades are worth spending $2,500 extra, but Lexicon must realize that now many of its would-be buyers will be making that assessment before deciding on a purchase. I'm guessing that they would have preferred consumers to remain ignorant on the issue.
