Wife suggests the "Big D"

[Brad225]

OK so it might not be the normal big D you think of. Lord knows I would understand after putting up with me for 36 years.
A couple of weeks ago my wife suggested that I should build a dedicated music room so we could use the room our 2 channel music and HT system is currently in for more living room space while making changes to the house.

Now this is the same woman that last month said:
" Should we get one of those Plasma TV's rather than this (60" Sony LCD RP). Everyone seems to be using them. What do you think?"

Maybe after 10+ years of the hormone swings of pre-menopause that has at times left me puzzled, shaking my head and saying,"Yes Dear". Something has flipped a switch in her very logical, fiscally conservative CPA, AM radio sounds fine to my mind, that the beginning of renovation of the house should be my/our music/HT room.

We have had a few discussions about what I am looking for in this room and that I may hire someone/company to give me guidance with the acoustical end of my ideas and execution as I will be building most of it myself.

Since the beginning of this I have been reading what I can here, at sites like Ethan Winter's, Rives Audio, Cardas and others I have found by Gooling. I've ordered Jim Smith's book Getting Better Sound to help me with this process.

There are so many possibilities of what to have or not have in this room I'm fairly sure I won't think of all of them.

The place I am starting with is what the finished room will look like from an general architectural/aesthetics appearance point. I realize that dimensions of the space will dictate the final layout. For me on a project I visualize the end result and work from there.

Will there be, should I or should not have:
Windows, Door to outside, hardwood or carpet on part or all (the floor will be wood frame to the exterior below) of the floor, decorative columns and soffit, acoustic absorption built into the walls or applied, raised stage and 2 level seating? I do realize it's a personal aesthetics choice though or am I think too much about this?.

I have done some layout and calculation at Ethan Winters site for room size proportions and currently looking at -no laughing now- 20'6" x 33' x 10' average ceiling height as there will be a ridge running the length of the room. My choice for this size (that is clearly subject to cost) is with my CLS's. I would like to have 8' between them 6' behind them to the front wall 4' to the side wall and sit 18' to 20' from them with 7' to the wall behind.

What specific features would you put in or have you already put in your listening room. For me this will be a once in a lifetime thing so I am looking for any input even if you think I've lost my mind.

 

[sleepysurf]

You lucky dog! I won't make any specific room/acoustic recommendations, but suggest you spend a fair bit of time looking at some of the dedicated room setups (with pics) on Audiogon for ideas. And I nominate your wife to be President of the TBLS Women's Auxiliary!

 

[DrJRapp]

What specific features would you put in or have you already put in your listening room. For me this will be a once in a lifetime thing so I am looking for any input even if you think I've lost my mind.

Use double layer drywall. The substrate can be conventional gypboard but the finish surface should be sound absorbing drywall. I used the 5/8" Quietrock. This helps prevent sound transmission to other rooms but also deadens a lot of room reverberation. It's a bit pricy and could add $1000-$1200, to a room your size but it is well, well worth it since it could save you many times that much in acoustic treatment. It installs and finishes like conventional drywall.

If you would like to take a quick trip across state I can let you hear how it benifits the room.

 

[MOON]

I built a dedicated room two years ago and did quite a bit of research as well.It would be advisable to use resiliant channelling. The drywall is screwed into the channelling instead of the wood stud,reducing sound transmission through the house. Another good tip is to apply acoustic caulk to every drywall seam before it gets mudded, then you know for sure it is sealed. I went with carpet over hardwood, I feel it's the best choice. Use acoustic caulk behiind outlet boxes and light switch boxes to seal the holes the wire goes through.
If you have a wall such as where you enter the room, have the electrical boxes only on one side of the wall ,if possilble. If not, do not put them within the same stud space on either side of the wall. One thing to keep in mind is sound is like water, any gap, no matter how small will let sound out. I also used an exterior door for the entrance to the room.Hope this helps.If you click to see my system, you will be able to see the room. It is 12x20. I wish I had the space available that you have.You may want to look at www.acoustics101.com
Brad, since your into watching movies, you may want to think about prewiring the room for a 1080 projector and skip the plasma.I did that during room construction running the hdmi cables and wiring for the electric screen, along with building and installing the box for the screen in the ceiling.Even if you couldn't get the screen and pj now, at least the room would be all setup for it.
I got my pj and screen about a year after the room was completed.
Cheers, Greg

 

[DrJRapp]

I build these things for a living (well at least I'm supposed to..if it were not for the economy) so I don't need to do any research to tell you that resiliant channel is old school and doesn't work nearly well as the rigid mount QuietrocK solution....and you can't use both together or the DW will resonate. Double layering drywall eliminates the need for cauling the DW joints, just be sure to stagger the joints (a FBC 2007 requirement). There are various schools of thought on how to handle wall penitrations. I just use "Great Stuff" foamed in behind each box and push in the box before the GS fully cures. I also frequently use loose fiberglass insulation inside the box especially when the device doesn't fully fill the box. I'm more concerned about reducing resonances to tame acoustic problems within the room than reducing transmission out of the room, therefore I focus on increasing the overall mass of the wall rather than how it's mounted.

 

[Brad225]

Jerry I may take you up on your offer on how it helps the room resonants. It may not be for a while but I will contact you when I have time to make a road trip.

Greg the link you provided tooks interesting I will print it out and give it a read.

Not sure how much of a sound transmission issue I will have or will be concerned about. It is only my wife and I here and depending on whether we expand the existing room or build a new one at most there would be only one wall connected to the existing house. But I will seriously look at that before sealing up any walls.

Thanks guys.

 

[tonepub]

Good luck on the new room. I think you will find that this will give your system a significant jump in performance!

 

[DrJRapp]

Jerry I may take you up on your offer on how it helps the room resonants. It may not be for a while but I will contact you when I have time to make a road trip.


Thanks guys.

Brad

Anytime you want. OBTW, it takes me less than 3 hrs door to door to your Convention Center.....just for reference sake. You could always make a weekend trip out of it...bring the wife and spend the night....we love company! Most ML lovers find it hard to tear themselves away from my system...LOL

I can also give you some general Architectural and appearance advice...that's my field. See post #36 of this thread http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8444&page=3

Don't be intimidated...not everything I do is that grand...lol

 

[Beakman]

Wood floor would be my choice. You can always dampen it with rugs but it's not so easy to rip out a carpet just to see what the difference may be.

 

[Brad225]

This is basically how the current room is laid out.
There are two listening positions available. The 14' seat is on the couch is very good but the sound stage image is a bit to compressed and intense for me. Most people that have listened prefer this position possibly because it is much more comfortable place to sit . My preference is the 17' seat because the sound stage is much wider, deeper and less intensely focused in the center. Being that close to the back wall clearly has issues with the bass. The 2" thick Owens Corning 705 panels has made a huge difference but I have to turn down the Depths when I am seated there. The other thing with that spot is there's only enough room for a dining room chair. Not the best for long listening sessions but the improvement in sound is well worth it to me.

Over all I think the room sound quite good and I could certainly work with it need be. There are a number of things that are moving me to create a new space. Not in any particular order but there are:

The windows on 3 sides of the room. They have 2" slated horizontal blinds that do break up the sound waves but I know all that glass still is not great.

I realize I have room behind my speakers many would love to have but, when I brought the CLS's back into the room after rebuilding the frames I started with them 6" further forward than the 5' to the front of the panels that they are now. The depth of the sound stage with only 6" more was much more dramatic than I ever would have thought. I would say maybe 30-40% deeper appearance with that change. I was unable to leave them there since they were starting to block the walk way into the room. I can only expect my wife to put up with so much so I moved them back.

The lack of room behind my choice of seating position too say nothing of the lack of room for a comfortable chair.

The normal room decorations. tables, stuff on the tables, lamps, artwork on the walls, ceiling fans you know all the normal stuff you would have in a living room.

My intention is to have the room for 2 channel listening and will fit in the HT stuff as best I can.

My hope is that I can convince Donna to just add on to this room instead of creating a new room. The extra expense and having 2 living rooms in the end seems like a waste of funds but I will do which ever she would like.

One of the things I have found on a few different sites is that a room that is acoustically ideal for HT is not good for music. Do any of you know why the acoustics would be that much different for one over the other.

 

[sleepysurf]

One of the things I have found on a few different sites is that a room that is acoustically ideal for HT is not good for music. Do any of you know why the acoustics would be that much different for one over the other.

I totally disagree with that view. An acoustically "good" room should work equally well for two channel or multichannel/home theater. In either case, you want minimal reverb using selective absorption as needed (but not overdamped), with optimized bass trapping. Do you have a link to whomever said that? I'd be very surprised if it was one of the room acoustics Pro's (e.g. Ethan from Realtraps, the GIK Acoustics guys, or Rives, etc.)

 

[Brad225]

I totally disagree with that view. An acoustically "good" room should work equally well for two channel or multichannel/home theater. In either case, you want minimal reverb using selective absorption as needed (but not overdamped), with optimized bass trapping. Do you have a link to whomever said that? I'd be very surprised if it was one of the room acoustics Pro's (e.g. Ethan from Realtraps, the GIK Acoustics guys, or Rives, etc.)

I don't remember specifically where it was from but when I run across it again I will post it.

 

[Brad225]

OK here is the first wife approved room addition size. We did work out that adding on to the existing room will be much more cost effective and functional than adding a room with a hallway to it.

My thoughts from the beginning was to have a soffit around the room with some columns on the side walls as well as bookcases on the side walls as you first step into the new space.

I will need to flatten the ceiling for both structural and lighting/A.C. requirements.

So, my next consideration is whether I build in absorption in the walls or use surface mounted or a combination of both.
Any input from all of you on this would be appreciated.
I think it may be time to contact either Ethan, Glenn or Rives for some help.

Sorry one drawing is sideways.

 

[Sambob2]

Nice progress on the plans Brad. Awesome! I've got the approval for a dedicated room as well however...I just have to dig out the basement...

I like the layout that makes the room multi functional...that is, surround on one end and stereo on the other with just a flip of the chair! I may even copy that if I ever get to digging out.

I would be concerned about those dimensions in the revised drawing. Take a look at the revised dimensions and you will see that one wall is close to double the shorter wall. I would expect to see some hefty low frequency harmonic resonances from that. The wall dimensions are too close to 2:1. Do you have the option to alter one of the dimensions? Ceiling height might in comparison to the walls might also cause some resonance with the other dimensions as well 10':22':40'. At your listening distance I might treat the ceiling first reflection to the listening chair. Ditto on the wall first reflections. Otherwise, if you can not change one of the wall dimensions, I would look into some heavy absorption panels for low frequencies.

Lunch break is over, back to work...

 

[Brad225]

Thanks for the input Sambob. The dimensions of addition are the max I would probably do. I will be adjusting them to the best ratio and still stay close to the drawing size. The only one I don't want to change is the length for the entire room.
From all I have read the angled ceiling makes the programs for modes not very accurate. I will play with the one on Ethan's site a bit more and then go for some professional input.
The addition of heavy absorption will definitely be included.

 

[sleepysurf]

Brad, just saw your thread over at the AA/Rives Acoustics Forum. Interesting that some of the pros do recommend the Home Theater setup be "deader" (though I liked Ethans take on that). Are you reconsidering the combined stereo/home theater setup, as some there recommended (and the path I chose), or forging ahead with the 90 degree dual setups?

 

[Brad225]

With the suggested potential problem with the 2 room connected this would be my next option.
In this one I would lower the floor 12" to you would step down in to that room. The doors behind the listening position would have either absorption or diffusion panels that would swing out of the way for room access.
That is not to say I have totally abandoned the first layout but I would agree that separating the room would be the best and easiest. Being able to close out the rest of the world for listening is not necessarily a bad thing either.

 

[JonFo]

Your new dimensions and layout look pretty good.

I’d also go with a lot more wall treatments, remember, our ML’s have a HUGE amount of radiating surface, way more than most dynamic speakers, so what works for a point source monopole is NOT what works for a large dipole line-source.

I calculated my rig has 78 square feet of total radiating surfaces in it. It takes quite a bit of acoustic treatments to manage that.
Even my highly treated room can still overload if I really crank it, but it’s at crazy-loud levels now

With a fresh construction, I’d consider building the room treatment into the walls, rather than as something tacked onto them afterwards. There are some great examples of this in the Rives and other acoustic oriented forums.

Also, a well designed and treated room is stunning on either music OR movies.

Matter of fact, it allows one to enjoy great multi-channel audio. As this months Sound+Vision mag special covers, multi-channel audio ain’t dead, and it’s growing.

 

[Brad225]

Nothing real exciting to report but I am making progress.

I have finished re-framing the floor to the current TV/Music Room. When the previous owners built the sun room from a poorly constructed open porch it appeared they used recycled lumber that had seen better days. I added another 2x8 joist next to each existing one gluing and nailing them together. Once I added blocking between them (non existent in the original floor) it made a major difference in the floor when you walked on it. Previously when you walked past the speakers they rocked side to side excessively.

I also added 1/2" bolts through the built up beams that run between the posts to carry the floor joists. They had very few nails and actually worked more like 3 separate pieces of wood that one larger one.

Then added everyone's favorite product to work with, fiberglass insulation and over the top of that 1/2" OSB sheathing. And lastly spray foam insulation to fill any small cracks. I swear that stuff is so sticky it can almost stick to air.

Next is to finish up with the architect doing the plans for the addition and get the permit.

 

[Audioseduction]

Brad, it looks very robust and safe! Great Job!