What's under your TT affects sound?

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kach22i

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What's under your TT affects sound..........any debate?

Last week I was in Overture Audio in Ann Arbor only to find they don't carry Gallo anymore (sorry to who ever was looking at Gallo). However I had a chance to look at their Quadraspire wall mounted TT shelves. The salesperson said of the three shelf options; the acrylic shelf sounds best, followed by the wood, and then the glass.

From my own home experiments of playing with marbles set in hard rubber furniture floor pads, different feet, and different shelves I felt he was not BS-ing me. However I could not argue either way because I've never had access to large thick sheets of affordable acrylic. They make TT's out of it, can't be bad, right?

Old set-up;
Seven years ago I had tuned by ear what I thought was best; TT on tempered glass sample (free-I'm an architect), the glass sitting on Audioquest sorbothane feet, sitting on thick maple butcher block with copper pipe legs and hard plastic end caps on fireplace floor/brick hearth.

My new set up cost about $40 for a 17" x 13" x 1/2" acrylic sheet, sourced from Plastic-Tech M&R in Ann Arbor.

New set-up;
TT on sorbothane feet on acrylic sheet on large $4 rubber stoppers from Stadium Hardware. Sitting on thick maple butcher block with copper pipe legs and hard plastic end caps on fireplace floor/brick hearth.

Results:

1. Mic saturation on early stereo recordings is gone, no more glare or shrill on loud passages.

2. Bass is cleaned up and orderly (Thiel speaker-like).

3. New lower level of background quietness.

4. Things were now a bit over-orderly, polite and I wanted a little more dazzle in the top end, so I..............tilted the angle of the speakers (Aerius) up to near vertical using composite grinding disks and pine samples (maple would be better) under the rear cone. Pace and rhythm seemed to pick back up, but at a small cost to height scale. My cat's head turned when the change was tossed in the drawer in Pink Floyd's "Money", the sparkle came back better than ever.

Rear Cone:
ML-REAR-SPIKE.jpg


Speaker sand box foundation and steel top layer:
ML-FRONT-SPIKE.jpg


Turntable - Overall:
DUAL-1.jpg


Turntable - Detail:
DUAL-2.jpg
 
Hi George,
I find it's a tale of opposites with turntables. Sprung suspended tables prefer an ultra light, ultra rigid rigid structure beneath them to minimise interaction with the suspension, while non-suspended, massive types of turntable seem to favour heavy, massive support. In the latter case, granite and slate add-ons for the top shelf aren't uncommon.

Lightweight add-ons can also be used for suspended tables. I personally always favoured placing the lightweight table directly onto a solid composition (concrete) floor (fewer elements requiring levelling :D ) but there's no reason why that light table can't be positioned on top of a massive unit with some degree of success.

The most popular tables all incorporated several levels of decoupling anyway - often quite subtle e.g. spikes on the base to minimise energy transfer, then spikes on the top surface, followed by a loose shelf? There's no limit to how far you can go, other than persistence and ingenuity :D
January 2009 I bought a custom made design with extra levels for ancillaries (Motor PSU etc)design for my "solid" T/T. See the manufacturer's gallery - mine is top centre on the first page - (the tripod configuration with single leg at the front).

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/page20.htm

Made from almost 2" thick laminated oak throughout, it's pretty substantial and nice to look at.
The sideways exit for the phono stage was just an interim arrangement while I decided to supersede the Naim 32.5 preamp I'd been using. This was duly replaced with a new Whest PS0.3r which fills the entire middle shelf (uncomfortably!) It's all looking a lot tidier now :D

Have an enjoyable holiday.......................................Victor.
 
For my Oracle I 've built a structure directly under the floor where it sits.
That structure "connect" that floor to my basement concrete floor. the idea was to ground the turnatable and everything in my sound system to earth.

No bouncy floor anymore.
 
For my Oracle I 've built a structure directly under the floor where it sits.
That structure "connect" that floor to my basement concrete floor. the idea was to ground the turnatable and everything in my sound system to earth.

No bouncy floor anymore.
I've thought of doing that too. Right now I feel that the concrete and brick hearth is enough. Knowing myself; sooner or later I will go in the basement with a jack and a post.:D
TT-Pad2.jpg


I did the next level of mod's to the turntable, and posted it in the DIY section.

DYI TT thread link:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?p=114413#post114413
TT-2.jpg
 
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Hi George,
I find it's a tale of opposites with turntables. Sprung suspended tables prefer an ultra light, ultra rigid rigid structure beneath them to minimise interaction with the suspension, while non-suspended, massive types of turntable seem to favour heavy, massive support. In the latter case, granite and slate add-ons for the top shelf aren't uncommon.

Lightweight add-ons can also be used for suspended tables. I personally always favoured placing the lightweight table directly onto a solid composition (concrete) floor (fewer elements requiring levelling :D ) but there's no reason why that light table can't be positioned on top of a massive unit with some degree of success.

The most popular tables all incorporated several levels of decoupling anyway - often quite subtle e.g. spikes on the base to minimize energy transfer, then spikes on the top surface, followed by a loose shelf? There's no limit to how far you can go, other than persistence and ingenuity :D
January 2009 I bought a custom made design with extra levels for ancillaries (Motor PSU etc)design for my "solid" T/T. See the manufacturer's gallery - mine is top centre on the first page - (the tripod configuration with single leg at the front).

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/page20.htm

Made from almost 2" thick laminated oak throughout, it's pretty substantial and nice to look at.
The sideways exit for the phono stage was just an interim arrangement while I decided to supersede the Naim 32.5 preamp I'd been using. This was duly replaced with a new Whest PS0.3r which fills the entire middle shelf (uncomfortably!) It's all looking a lot tidier now :D

Have an enjoyable holiday.......................................Victor.

Exactly! When Linn came out with the light support idea, people laughed, thinking that mass was the way to go, but for a light suspended table a light rigid stand is the way to go. Having been a Linnie for over 20 years I have had a large number of stands under my table and with out a doubt, light is better IMS.
 
About 15 years ago it seemed everyone agreed that wood racks/stands absorbed resonance energy only to release it back into the chain and then muddy up the music. Back then it was thought that quick/fast energy transfer of welded heavy steel tubes was best for all stereo equipment including turntables.

Very interesting to see the theory and practices of resonance control refined and defined so much today.
 
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Exactly! When Linn came out with the light support idea, people laughed, thinking that mass was the way to go, but for a light suspended table a light rigid stand is the way to go. Having been a Linnie for over 20 years I have had a large number of stands under my table and with out a doubt, light is better IMS.

Hi Risabet,
As I was always on the lookout for inexpensive updates, one of the things that occupied my thoughts in the later years was the mechanical relationship between T/T and it's ancillaries...
Although the LP12 was technically immune to feedback, I found that the partnering Naim amps natural chassis resonance could have a bearing on the sound. So I fabricated individual wooden tri-spiked platforms for each Naim module so that they could also sit on the concrete floor. Cable risers were used for the I/C and power cables - including the LP12's power cable. The I/C between Naim Pre and Power amp could (by mechanical means) change the character of the sound substantially depending on how it was dressed and what sort of cable riser was used, thus the sound could veer from neutral/ambient to upfront/acoustically dead. One possible conclusion was that vibration was being passed from this cable, via the Naim chassis to the phono cable then to the turntable. (Another possibility which I don't like to think about is that the Naim was microphonic - as SS isn't "supposed" to be! However when the Linn cart's output was taken into account - 100uV - then maybe it's not so crazy! :) )
I also tried these custom platforms mounted on shelved Target tables as an additional decoupling exercise successfully but the cable decoupling became habitual to get optimum results. To take the issue of decoupling to extremes, wooden cones were also deployed under every Naim module instead of their default rubber feet. Surprisingly, changing the size of the cone under the Naim preamp influenced the final sound balance too. The Linn preferred small cones under the Naim pre. When the LP12's successor was installed it preferred the large cones under the Naim Pre ("opposites" effect again)
All the best....................................Victor.
 
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About 15 years ago it seemed everyone agreed that wood racks/stands absorbed resonance energy only to release it back into the chain and then muddy up the music. Back then it was thought that quick/fast energy transfer of welded heavy steel tubes was best for all stereo equipment including turntables.

Very interesting to see the theory and practices or resonance control refined and defined so much today.

Hi George,
Wood is often seen as having a more natural and less unpleasant character than metal (think bodies of most musical instruments?), with metal having the inherent tendency to ring like a bell. Glass then compounded this with it's own resonance, although Mana swore that their stands solved this problem by using L-section steel which produced more favourable interaction with the glass. I'm not wholly convinced that glass is always the villain that it's portrayed as, given that Rega's award winning turntables used glass platters (i.e. a fraction of an inch away from the most important mechanical interface in a hifi system :eek: ) I haven't heard many complaints ! ;)

This is possibly why most of the successful tables used wood or medite as a damping layer between the metal frame and turntable? (Or maybe because it was cheaper and easier to make as a shelf !)
In the end it really depends on what combination of materials sounds best to your ears and allows the unit to work. Where mechanical energy is concerned there is no silver bullet unfortunately, but I'd be wary of ultra expensive tables that claim to be automatically better than anything we could make ourselves.....(not that they can't be good too! :D )
Best regards.............................Victor.
 
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Wood.......... Glass........ no silver bullet unfortunately
Hey Bill, I agree with what you are saying. It follows my own experiments of material under my turntable and speakers.

Wood: can sound warm but grainy

Steel: can sound strong but cold

Glass: can sound clear but with glare

Rubber/Sorbogel: can add lots of bounce to music but spongy sound.

Brass/Bronze: wish a had a semi truck full of it - expensive.
 
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Hey Bill, I agree with what you are saying. It follows my own experiments of material under my turntable and speakers.....
Brass/Bronze: wish a had a semi truck full of it - expensive.

Hi George,
Interesting you should say that....
The manufacturer of my current turntable is equally convinced of the merits of bronze....so much so that he offers to NC machine compatible armboards for the tonearms of your choice in this material. As luck would have it, because mine was such an awkward "boomerang" shape, it didn't fit in with the standard billets he was using so he created one from aluminium instead - which he assures me sounds similar to the bronze. The geometry is quite impressive. I'm told that it's so unique that I'm the only user in the world with an R1 compatible armboard which suits the Ittok LVII. Just to complicate matters, after all that work and waiting in line for 6 months, I'll probably go and replace the tonearm now! :D:D
The aluminium does ring like the proverbial bell but once the arm is attached and the armboard is clamped, the ringing is effectively controlled.
Best regards..............................Victor.
 
R1 = Round One?

Ittok = Linn

Sorry George....I shouldn't have used the codename. :)
R1 Refers to the TW Acustic "Raven One".

http://www.tw-acustic.de/engl/index2.html

The Ittok is an old war horse that I have a strong affection for. If I superseded it, I guess I'd have to go for something that used the Linn compatible fixtures e.g. Ekos, perhaps AudioOrigami Pu-7?
Cheers.............................Victor
 
I'm reminded of one earliest demos of the LP12...a 3-cornered "bake off" between the Linn, an STD305 (made by another Glasgow engineering manufacturer), and the "JBE series 3" mass damped solid slate (Welsh slate) direct drive T/T.
All 3 turntables were placed side by side on something resembling a long 1960's coffee table with the Linn in the centre. On this occasion, somewhat incredibly, public opinion favoured the JBE series 3.....
The outcome got Linn thinking and eventually the answer came that the support did not favour suspended tables. Thereafter developed a healthy aftermarket in "turntable tables" with the Sound Organisation Table becoming the predominantly approved support for the LP12 and the accessory of choice for Linn users. Later that excellent design was superseded (largely due to it's lack of adjustment and levelling capability) by the AudioTech Table, among others.
Victor.
 
I'm reminded of one earliest demos of the LP12...a 3-cornered "bake off" between the Linn, an STD305 (made by another Glasgow engineering manufacturer), and the "JBE series 3" mass damped solid slate (Welsh slate) direct drive T/T.
All 3 turntables were placed side by side on something resembling a long 1960's coffee table with the Linn in the centre. On this occasion, somewhat incredibly, public opinion favoured the JBE series 3.....
The outcome got Linn thinking and eventually the answer came that the support did not favour suspended tables. Thereafter developed a healthy aftermarket in "turntable tables" with the Sound Organisation Table becoming the predominantly approved support for the LP12 and the accessory of choice for Linn users. Later that excellent design was superseded (largely due to it's lack of adjustment and levelling capability) by the AudioTech Table, among others.
Victor.

I started with the SO table but moved to the AudioTech, which I still use, due to, as you wrote, its adjustability.
 

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Excellent research George - I'd forgotten what they looked like ! :D
By all accounts the STD305 was a decent turntable in it's day, and has very clean lines, but it was up against stiff competition (!!)
Not sure exactly how long the JBE lasted or how many were sold but I'm sure they can still find used models of both on E-Bay. :D
Cheers..........................Victor.
 
I started with the SO table but moved to the AudioTech, which I still use, due to, as you wrote, its adjustability.

Hi Risabet....even though my suspended turntable has gone, I still keep the AudioTech (in case of an emergency or a change of heart!!!! :D )

I'm still running in my MMIII at the moment (16 hrs on the clock so far) and once properly set up it seems to do everything it says on the tin. I now know why Len Gregory recommends scrupulous cleaning as it seems to be quite sensitive to build up of fluff on the underside of the cart body with certain samples of vinyl. Normally it's as silent as any good cartridge for surface noise levels. It seems to happen on the occasional static prone vinyl sample, possibly due to both the low slung body and the plastic composition? (Never quite the same problem with carts possessing alum or steel bodies.)
I've heard that the performance really starts to take off at the 20 hour mark and is fully run in by 30 hrs.:music:
Best regards................Victor
 
I have tried a variety of support materials under my clearaudio refrence . This is a non suspended deck and sounds truly painfull on a glass shelf . Wood sounds much better , and I went with this for some years , although I was not totaly happy as the sound was just a little warm and wooly for my taste . Anyway to cut a long story short , after much experementation I have found the best results so far to be 1 inch thick slate resting on half squash balls . Sound is clean and crisp with tight extended bass .
All my equipment now sits on slate with good results . I got the slate made to my spec by a local monumental mason at a very reasonable cost , makes a change from gravestones I suppose !
 
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