What amp to use with ML Source speakers

[rp2]

Hi everyone.

I am new to the forum and all else. So excited to have Martin Logan in our lives.

I have Marantz cinema 50 AVR new.

Martin Logan Source electrostatic speakers

Martin logan surround sound 4 speakers and center channel

2 subwoofers, Klipsh and Martin Logan

4 Orb audio speakers used for ceiling(atmos)


Sony Blue Ray player you can up convert to 8k we play a lot of cds too.




We listen to more music than movies. And just thru Source speakers and subwoofers, for the music, so the source are played at less than 50 watts each right? We have I pod classic that has to be plugged in thru headphone jack and makes sound lower. We have to put volume of AVR on 80 at least.


We need to push the ML Source speakers, not getting loud enough maybe 50 watts a piece. How do you decide how to do the math for the 2 subs and the speakers with built in subwoofers is it ok to use 300 to 400 watts ?


or 2 mono blocks total 300-400? Is it ok to have this and just use what is needed. Should the source speakers have their own amp(s)?


So what do you suggest, for and wattage and how many amps? Any particular brand. We probably will look for used equipment if really upscale. We tried to go without amp, but it seems necessary now.


Thank you for your help.

Rance

 

[Leporello]

So you're serious about music and less so about movies/videos but still watch them? Sounds like me!

First, is your loudness problem because the amps are clipping out if you play them loud, or just a gain problem? If the latter, there are probably cheaper solutions than upgrading your amps.

Still, I highly recommend upgrading the the amps driving the L and R speakers, for serious music listening. Monoblocks can be great, but most of them are quite expensive. You're paying for a power supply and metal work for each channel. Use the pre outputs of your AVR to drive them, if it has them. Warning, though, if your AVR doesn't have enough voltage gain for the headphone output of your i Pod Classic that may not really fix the problem.

In my opinion the best solution for your use case would be an a/v preamp/processor, a serious stereo power amp or pair of monoblocks for the L and R, and a more economical multichannel amp for the rest. Generally whatever you buy along those lines will be "upscale", even on the used market.

If it's a voltage gain problem and nothing else, you could consider a new AVR that does have enough voltage gain--try before you buy--with enough pre outputs--preferably all of them--to support upgrading the power amp sections down the road. Or just transfer your music to a modern device and say goodbye to your classic iPod. I'm unfamiliar with how to do that, does it have just an internal memory, or a memory card? If you bought a reasonably priced music streamer (e.g. Cambridge Audio) whose level better matches a home audio system, and re-acquired some of your favorite music in high resolution instead of MP3, you might just be blown away. If you did that, and there were a digital way of transferring the MP3's of your less favorite music (USB to computer? Probably running iTunes?), you might get away with spending not that much money.

p.s. wattage per say is not that big a deal. 50 per stereo channel is probably enough for hybrid ESL's in a reasonable room, unless you're looking for ear-splitting levels. It's logarithmic, so going to 100 watts, all other things being equal, will give you 3dB more volume, barely noticeable. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with going to 200 or 300 watts per as long as you don't overload the speakers. Hopefully the speakers will tell you when that is happening, with easily heard distortion. And yes, it is true that an underpowered amp driven into clipping can do more harm than a higher powered amp operating within its specs. Either way, if you hear distortion, quickly reduce the volume.

 

[18000rpm]

Congrats on your new purchases! I also have the new Cinema 50 AVR and like it a lot. It's great for movies.

Only your two front speakers (Source) should require more power than what an AVR can provide. I would suggest you try adding a 2-channel amplifier just for the fronts, with 200W+ per channel.

I use a Bryston 4B-SST to power my fronts (ML Prodigy) and they work great, lots of power (500Wpc at 4ohms). And Bryston provides 20-year warranty so you can buy used ones with little worry. They are built like tanks. Emotiva is another decent option. An external amplifier will be much better for harder to drive speakers (I see the Source is 5ohm).

 

[Motorbykemike]

i also own a set of source as well as theos , i bounce back and forth between them and have spent quite some time with the source with many different amps as well as running them off an old yamaha dsp-a3090 just for kicks

i got off the ht thing and for reference am strictly 2ch for music and movies as well , 1 or 2 subs , cd , dvd/tv , streaming , tuner

i have lots of stuff and a few friends do as well , we bring stuff over each other places and leave it there for awhile so lots of tinkering and opportunities to screw up system synergy or discover surprising things

anyways , here we go............

the yamaha ht setup definitely left more than a little bit to be desired driving the source

these "little logans" as my friends call them , absolutely punch above their weight class and imo are the best entry level hybrid ever sold by ml , i've owned or had many in my room over time , these guys go over buddies houses for a sleepover and supposedly "they dont want to come home" , they are welcomed and loved everywhere they go , and they keep very good company if you get where i'm coming from

one thing i am for certain of is that these things wake up and really come alive when feed some watts , but more importantly current , lots of both

i have run them not only off the yammie ht thingy and quite a few amps , i'll break it down below

the yamaha - pretty hollow and well , just, no thank you , over it , never again

adcom gfa-5500 - alive! room filling , fast controlled bass and clear concise highs

adcom gfa-555ii - pretty much the same but maybe not quite as detailed down low

adcom gfa-585le - more , just more everywhere , amazing super low volume detail

adcom gfa-565 monos - even better at super low volume but too much space heater effect

ps audio bhk-250 - very nice everywhere but not worth the price of admission , roi or bang per buck was not there compared to the rest of the crowd

ps audio m700 monos - impressive bass but something was missing , like soul , too clinical

aragon 8008bb - alot like the first two adcom amps above , a/b for days with the same tracks and really could not say one was better than the other , just slightly different

b&k st-140 - not as powerful as the above choices but a sweet sounding amp for sure , need two of these

b&k 200.2 s2 - more powerful and just as sweet , i a/b this thing and the 585le and 5500 all the time , they are all good with these speakers

musical fidelity 3.5 i think it was - another nice amp , detailed and smooth but i think it is better served on conventional drivers

wyred 4 sound class d monos , forget which ones - powerful but again sterile , souless , wasn't for me in my rig

all of these above amps are high current and wattage except maybe the st-140 is not quite in the middle/heavyweight class like the others , do you see the trend ?


you were not specific about what subs you have so i'm guessing they need to be driven rather than self powered ?

if so , i would suggest some used middle of the road class d amp/s to drive them or consider replacing them with self powered units (i have had great results with rel subs and ml hybrids , they can actually keep up with the speed the panels are capable of imo and the high level input thing seems to integrate nicely for me )

i agree 1000% with the previous poster about the ipod/mp3 thing , tried that and hated the quality of the playback but if you have irreplaceable gems on there ............. i now just play mine on a bose sound dock

in a nutshell , i'm not convinced class d is right for these source or the theos in my setup , they both love the "motts" , watts and current , monos are cool but bridged i'm too afraid to try due to the ohms thing

your av50 is more than capable of driving whatever amps and sub setup you land on as well as inputs from anything you can think of


ymmv

p.s. i do have some amps for sale

 

[Robert D]

Congrats on your new purchases! I also have the new Cinema 50 AVR and like it a lot. It's great for movies.

Only your two front speakers (Source) should require more power than what an AVR can provide. I would suggest you try adding a 2-channel amplifier just for the fronts, with 200W+ per channel.

I use a Bryston 4B-SST to power my fronts (ML Prodigy) and they work great, lots of power (500Wpc at 4ohms). And Bryston provides 20-year warranty so you can buy used ones with little worry. They are built like tanks. Emotiva is another decent option. An external amplifier will be much better for harder to drive speakers (I see the Source is 5ohm).

That's what I do. I've got an 11 channel atmos setup and use an Aragon 2 channel amp for my Prodigies.

https://www.aragonav.com/titanium

 

[Motorbykemike]

threadjack!

robert d , do you have any experience with the mondial aragons ?

i tried to get an indy 8008 but it didn't happen , wondering how they compare ...


now back to our normally scheduled programing

oh and yes , the amp/s run the mains

 

[rp2]

Thank you so much everyone!! Wow that was a while ago I posted. We wound up getting a great deal on open box EMOTIVA XPA-11 Gen 3 11 3.4S 11 Channel Amplifier on E bay for $1200 And we even got a new refurbished ipod as we tried to take ours apart to little success. We did our own banana plug hookup and got high quality cables for the sources and the subwoofer and monster cable for all the other speakers. It all works great!!!You do have to sit in a certain area for the best sound on the Source's, though.

 

[Robert D]

threadjack!

robert d , do you have any experience with the mondial aragons ?

i tried to get an indy 8008 but it didn't happen , wondering how they compare ...


now back to our normally scheduled programing

oh and yes , the amp/s run the mains

My only experience is with the 8008, it's what I have. I bought it new. It's been wonderful.

 

[Leporello]

i also own a set of source as well as theos , i bounce back and forth between them and have spent quite some time with the source with many different amps as well as running them off an old yamaha dsp-a3090 just for kicks

i got off the ht thing and for reference am strictly 2ch for music and movies as well , 1 or 2 subs , cd , dvd/tv , streaming , tuner

i have lots of stuff and a few friends do as well , we bring stuff over each other places and leave it there for awhile so lots of tinkering and opportunities to screw up system synergy or discover surprising things

anyways , here we go............

the yamaha ht setup definitely left more than a little bit to be desired driving the source

these "little logans" as my friends call them , absolutely punch above their weight class and imo are the best entry level hybrid ever sold by ml , i've owned or had many in my room over time , these guys go over buddies houses for a sleepover and supposedly "they dont want to come home" , they are welcomed and loved everywhere they go , and they keep very good company if you get where i'm coming from

one thing i am for certain of is that these things wake up and really come alive when feed some watts , but more importantly current , lots of both

i have run them not only off the yammie ht thingy and quite a few amps , i'll break it down below

the yamaha - pretty hollow and well , just, no thank you , over it , never again

adcom gfa-5500 - alive! room filling , fast controlled bass and clear concise highs

adcom gfa-555ii - pretty much the same but maybe not quite as detailed down low

adcom gfa-585le - more , just more everywhere , amazing super low volume detail

adcom gfa-565 monos - even better at super low volume but too much space heater effect

ps audio bhk-250 - very nice everywhere but not worth the price of admission , roi or bang per buck was not there compared to the rest of the crowd

ps audio m700 monos - impressive bass but something was missing , like soul , too clinical

aragon 8008bb - alot like the first two adcom amps above , a/b for days with the same tracks and really could not say one was better than the other , just slightly different

b&k st-140 - not as powerful as the above choices but a sweet sounding amp for sure , need two of these

b&k 200.2 s2 - more powerful and just as sweet , i a/b this thing and the 585le and 5500 all the time , they are all good with these speakers

musical fidelity 3.5 i think it was - another nice amp , detailed and smooth but i think it is better served on conventional drivers

wyred 4 sound class d monos , forget which ones - powerful but again sterile , souless , wasn't for me in my rig

all of these above amps are high current and wattage except maybe the st-140 is not quite in the middle/heavyweight class like the others , do you see the trend ?


you were not specific about what subs you have so i'm guessing they need to be driven rather than self powered ?

if so , i would suggest some used middle of the road class d amp/s to drive them or consider replacing them with self powered units (i have had great results with rel subs and ml hybrids , they can actually keep up with the speed the panels are capable of imo and the high level input thing seems to integrate nicely for me )

i agree 1000% with the previous poster about the ipod/mp3 thing , tried that and hated the quality of the playback but if you have irreplaceable gems on there ............. i now just play mine on a bose sound dock

in a nutshell , i'm not convinced class d is right for these source or the theos in my setup , they both love the "motts" , watts and current , monos are cool but bridged i'm too afraid to try due to the ohms thing

your av50 is more than capable of driving whatever amps and sub setup you land on as well as inputs from anything you can think of


ymmv

p.s. i do have some amps for sale

Lots of items reviewed here! You don't hear too much about Adcom lately, but every time I check they are still around. Still budget friendly too. My old 555 from the 1980's--came out just after the one with the rack style panel--is still my go-too when other amps are having problems. It would be interesting to see and hear how it has evolved to the 555i. One thing I didn't like, when I used to blow the rail fuses regularly (when using a PS Audio 5.1 pre, which would surge to the rails when losing power) is they were a PITA to replace. But I believe they fixed that on later models. I'm sure modern PS Audio preamps ae much better too, but I haven't used or seen one in years.

Bridging is definitely not recommended for any speaker whose impedance magnitude dips into the sub 4 ohm region, including any ML stats.

 

[Nuri58]

Bridging is definitely not recommended for any speaker whose impedance magnitude dips into the sub 4 ohm region, including any ML stats.

What do you think would be the risk? I'm thinking that most amps have some sort of protection. And the frequeces where the panels drop in impedance is also where normal music has the lowest loads. Of course this would still make the sound level roll off, but that could be compensated by the room equiliser.

 

[Motorbykemike]

Really bad things

All the audiophool magical pixie dust will most likely go up in smoke

If not all , then most

 

[Leporello]

What do you think would be the risk? I'm thinking that most amps have some sort of protection. And the frequeces where the panels drop in impedance is also where normal music has the lowest loads. Of course this would still make the sound level roll off, but that could be compensated by the room equiliser.

Making up for lost highs due to low speaker impedance is really not recommended. I don't know about "audiophool magical pixie dust", but the odds that the amplifier itself will smoke are greatly increased. It's analogous to trying to eq. away a 12dB suckout at 26 hz in your room. Most people know that's a bad idea, because they tell you that in the eq. instructions. Your amp could overheat and if it has thermal protection it would shut down. If not, worse things could happen, to the tune of turning all your output devices into wire nuts and taking out driver transistors, resistors, etc. assosicated with it.

When you bridge a stereo amp and drive a 4 ohm speaker with it, each side "sees" only 2 ohms.

 

[Nuri58]

Interesting. This is what I have practiced for 5 years without facing issues and without losing the magic - at least I cannot hear any difference between my AVR rated at 4 ohms, the amp rated 4 (125w) resp. 8 ohms (270w) in bridged mode. Of course, I am not cranking it up to full level, but loud enough. But the amplitude in high frequencies are by far lower than i low frequencies, which means the load on the amp is falling as frequences increases. This concedes with ML's statement that their speakers are compatible with a least most 4, 6 and 8 ohms gear. I might actually go back to bi-amping, which is still loud enough and has an edge over bi-wiring - not least as the ESL X are a bit easier to drive that the Aion I were.

 

[Motorbykemike]

Iirc sanders makes an amp or two that is bridgeable and stable into lower ohm ratings

Made specifically for electrostatics and otherwise hard to drive or low impedance speakers

They are out of my budget range so when I want more power I bi-amp , as I am currently on the theos , adcom 585le on the panels and a 555/2 on the bass , rel sub ,———-really wakes these things up

I don’t normally listen at loud levels , but at whisper levels everything is still there and sounding wonderful