With the amount of info that a Bluray disc can hold and now that it is the de facto winner. Do you think Bluray will become the audiophile choice of medium for music. With CD sales going down the toilet,it would make sense for the music labels to debut High Def music (we have HD Radio,HD TV,HD Movies). It makes so much sense. With Bluray players soon to become as popular as DVD players the infrastructure will be built in.
What about Bluray being used for audio only
- Thread starter longhorn
- Start date
Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
Good question. With the poor showing of DVDA, do you think they will try for BRA? I don't know. The record companies have not shown a lot of leadership in the high res music arena. I think it would take considerable marketing to convince most people that there is enough of a benefit for them to spend a few extra dollars on a high-res disc vs. a standard CD.
People get it with movies, I think, because they now have screens where they can see the difference. But do most folks have audio systems where they can really hear the difference between redbook CD and high-res audio? I don't know. I do expect to start seeing more concerts appearing on BR though.
People get it with movies, I think, because they now have screens where they can see the difference. But do most folks have audio systems where they can really hear the difference between redbook CD and high-res audio? I don't know. I do expect to start seeing more concerts appearing on BR though.
amey01
Well-known member
Heaven forbid - another physical format?
OK - it would make sense if it could be a truly high-res format, but it wouldn't be - it would be just a small step up from what we use now. I don't believe BluRay holds that much data. CD was released in 1982 and hard disks were around 10-20 MB max. CD held 650MB.
Hard disks are now around 1TB - how much data do you reckon they could fit on an optical disc if they wanted to? 200TB? Probably - if they didn't want to have planned obsolesence built in. Now 200TB would provide us with serious sound quality - but for small increase in sample rates - give me downloads any day.
The other issue is compatability - BluRay players might be as common as DVD players, but what about in cars, boats, computers, etc.
No, the decline in CD sales indicates to me that most people, present company excepted DON'T CARE about sound quality. The two Hi-Def audio formats (SACD and DVD-A)are commercial failures though a thriving niche market and the fact that Sony developed and then abandoned SACD doesn't give me much hope for BRA.
You assume much about the market penetration of the BRD. If the lack of caring about sound quality is indicative, and it may not be, don't hold your breath. The majority of people I know aren't rushing out to buy Hi-Def players but are quite happy with SD DVD.
SteveInNC
Well-known member
I'll give two counter-arguments:
1) A large portion (not all) of today's popular music is crap. Poorly engineered, poorly performed, generated from a corporate mold based on what's selling at the moment, and compressed to hell for the radio and MP3 markets. High fidelity is meaningless if the source material is poor.
2) I suspect that a large portion of today's music buyers have never really heard a quality system, and I don't mean stuff of our typical caliber, I mean better than an iPod, overpowered thumper car system, or equivalent, so they really don't know what they're missing. As discussed once before, I just hope that they don't kill their hearing before they get a chance to appreciate what quality sources and sound is like.
amey01
Well-known member
Very true - it's a sad realisation of the current music industry that they are only interested in mass volume. If your taste extends far beyond "Rhianna", "Brittney Spears" or "50 Cent" then you don't get much choice. No stores are interested in stocking albums that aren't going to sell in mass volume. Similarly, they aren't going to stock a format that isn't going to sell in mass volume - ie. SACD or DVD-A.
Let's hope that a future distribution model can change this and give us easy access to the music we love.
Dreamer
Classified Forum Moderator
Well considering that Sony's first BluRay player, the BDP-S1, didn't even have the ability to play Redbook CDs (just DVD and BRD), or ANY current music-only CD format, I dont see that Sony is too concerned with giving us any sort of "breakthrough" format for high-def music.
No, I think that we are in the last days (or rather, the last decade or so) of music distribution on physical formats. Soon (and by that I mean in the next 10 years) almost ALL music distributed by major labels will be distributed digitally--through downloads, or at POS kiosks where you supply the media for transport (memory cards or something).
I agree with the other posts here that QUALITY is not a priority--for either the music industry OR the vast majority of end-users. If it sounds OK on an iPod, or in your car, it's good enough for most folks. Truth be told, the sound quality you get from a portable MP3 player (if you're using lossless formats) is actually FAR superior to what most people's stereos are capable of, so the vast majority of consumers don't even know what they are missing with modern recorded music.
I've had non-audiophile friends in my house for movie nights, or parties, or just hanging out, and when I play one of their favorite CDs in my rig, they just sit there and listen, wide-eyed. Eventually they will look over at me (as I sit there with my sh!+ eating grin) and say something like "I didn't know this CD sounded this good!" I just nod, and point to my beautiful clear panels, and say, "That is the magic of Martin Logans"...
We live in a very special world, dear friends--a world of good sound--a world FAR outside the frame of reference of the majority of people, as far as reproduced recorded music goes. Even those of us with modest systems (and I include my own rig in that category!) are MILES ahead of the general public as far as the musicality, resolution, and accuracy of musical reproduction of our systems.
We should count ourselves lucky to be part of this rare experience. And we should use every available opportunity to enlighten and educate our non-audiophile friends as to the lofty possibilities of musical enjoyment that are well within their grasp.
The only hope we have for the future of high-quality recorded music is to actively mobilize and educate the public. If people don't care that their CD's sound like crap, they will continue to buy the garbage being churned out by over-zealous production engineers and bottom-line-motivated record company execs. If they hear what GOOD recordings sound like on good systems, they might actually start to demand that their source material is produced with the love and care that recorded music deserves.
We are the vanguards of Good Audio, dear brothers and sisters. We are in a unique position, through the demonstration of our systems, to educate the public as to what "good sound" can be. Invite some non-audiophile friends over for a "listening session". Tell them to bring their favorite CDs--ones that they are VERY familiar with. They will be amazed when they hear their music--music they thought they knew intimately--in a whole new light--with depth, clarity, and the pure musicality that only Martin Logans can provide.
Be prepared to explain to them how your speakers work. Tell them that they can have that kind of sound too--for probably just a little more money than they paid for their "home theater" system they bought at Best Buys or Circuit City. We have the power to direct the music industry, if only we can reach out to the masses and show them the truth inside their music...
--Richard
No, I think that we are in the last days (or rather, the last decade or so) of music distribution on physical formats. Soon (and by that I mean in the next 10 years) almost ALL music distributed by major labels will be distributed digitally--through downloads, or at POS kiosks where you supply the media for transport (memory cards or something).
I agree with the other posts here that QUALITY is not a priority--for either the music industry OR the vast majority of end-users. If it sounds OK on an iPod, or in your car, it's good enough for most folks. Truth be told, the sound quality you get from a portable MP3 player (if you're using lossless formats) is actually FAR superior to what most people's stereos are capable of, so the vast majority of consumers don't even know what they are missing with modern recorded music.
I've had non-audiophile friends in my house for movie nights, or parties, or just hanging out, and when I play one of their favorite CDs in my rig, they just sit there and listen, wide-eyed. Eventually they will look over at me (as I sit there with my sh!+ eating grin) and say something like "I didn't know this CD sounded this good!" I just nod, and point to my beautiful clear panels, and say, "That is the magic of Martin Logans"...
We live in a very special world, dear friends--a world of good sound--a world FAR outside the frame of reference of the majority of people, as far as reproduced recorded music goes. Even those of us with modest systems (and I include my own rig in that category!) are MILES ahead of the general public as far as the musicality, resolution, and accuracy of musical reproduction of our systems.
We should count ourselves lucky to be part of this rare experience. And we should use every available opportunity to enlighten and educate our non-audiophile friends as to the lofty possibilities of musical enjoyment that are well within their grasp.
The only hope we have for the future of high-quality recorded music is to actively mobilize and educate the public. If people don't care that their CD's sound like crap, they will continue to buy the garbage being churned out by over-zealous production engineers and bottom-line-motivated record company execs. If they hear what GOOD recordings sound like on good systems, they might actually start to demand that their source material is produced with the love and care that recorded music deserves.
We are the vanguards of Good Audio, dear brothers and sisters. We are in a unique position, through the demonstration of our systems, to educate the public as to what "good sound" can be. Invite some non-audiophile friends over for a "listening session". Tell them to bring their favorite CDs--ones that they are VERY familiar with. They will be amazed when they hear their music--music they thought they knew intimately--in a whole new light--with depth, clarity, and the pure musicality that only Martin Logans can provide.
Be prepared to explain to them how your speakers work. Tell them that they can have that kind of sound too--for probably just a little more money than they paid for their "home theater" system they bought at Best Buys or Circuit City. We have the power to direct the music industry, if only we can reach out to the masses and show them the truth inside their music...
--Richard
In Asia and Europe the populace care more than Americans about the quality of music. Thats why High End companies are selling more and more to that part of the world. I expect that part of the world to set the trend for the rest to follow. There is now one HD media,its Bluray. Sony not only makes movies but also produces music. I do not think its too far fetch that Sony will make the most of their new medium and that includes music.
Well considering that Sony's first BluRay player, the BDP-S1, didn't even have the ability to play Redbook CDs (just DVD and BRD), or ANY current music-only CD format, I dont see that Sony is too concerned with giving us any sort of "breakthrough" format for high-def music.
No, I think that we are in the last days (or rather, the last decade or so) of music distribution on physical formats. Soon (and by that I mean in the next 10 years) almost ALL music distributed by major labels will be distributed digitally--through downloads, or at POS kiosks where you supply the media for transport (memory cards or something).
I agree with the other posts here that QUALITY is not a priority--for either the music industry OR the vast majority of end-users. If it sounds OK on an iPod, or in your car, it's good enough for most folks. Truth be told, the sound quality you get from a portable MP3 player (if you're using lossless formats) is actually FAR superior to what most people's stereos are capable of, so the vast majority of consumers don't even know what they are missing with modern recorded music.
I've had non-audiophile friends in my house for movie nights, or parties, or just hanging out, and when I play one of their favorite CDs in my rig, they just sit there and listen, wide-eyed. Eventually they will look over at me (as I sit there with my sh!+ eating grin) and say something like "I didn't know this CD sounded this good!" I just nod, and point to my beautiful clear panels, and say, "That is the magic of Martin Logans"...
We live in a very special world, dear friends--a world of good sound--a world FAR outside the frame of reference of the majority of people, as far as reproduced recorded music goes. Even those of us with modest systems (and I include my own rig in that category!) are MILES ahead of the general public as far as the musicality, resolution, and accuracy of musical reproduction of our systems.
We should count ourselves lucky to be part of this rare experience. And we should use every available opportunity to enlighten and educate our non-audiophile friends as to the lofty possibilities of musical enjoyment that are well within their grasp.
The only hope we have for the future of high-quality recorded music is to actively mobilize and educate the public. If people don't care that their CD's sound like crap, they will continue to buy the garbage being churned out by over-zealous production engineers and bottom-line-motivated record company execs. If they hear what GOOD recordings sound like on good systems, they might actually start to demand that their source material is produced with the love and care that recorded music deserves.
We are the vanguards of Good Audio, dear brothers and sisters. We are in a unique position, through the demonstration of our systems, to educate the public as to what "good sound" can be. Invite some non-audiophile friends over for a "listening session". Tell them to bring their favorite CDs--ones that they are VERY familiar with. They will be amazed when they hear their music--music they thought they knew intimately--in a whole new light--with depth, clarity, and the pure musicality that only Martin Logans can provide.
Be prepared to explain to them how your speakers work. Tell them that they can have that kind of sound too--for probably just a little more money than they paid for their "home theater" system they bought at Best Buys or Circuit City. We have the power to direct the music industry, if only we can reach out to the masses and show them the truth inside their music...
--Richard
That was a great "pump up" speech, sounded like my coach before a football game except the topic was speakers. I am taking your advice and having a few buddies over to see what music is all about. I can't wait to see what my friend says when he hears Zeppelin on something other then a Zune with the little dock/speaker setup.:music:
Another point to consider
NBC recently published a report blaming falling cd sales on the rise of online distribution of music. Here is an article discussing that report:
NBC Points to the Leading Killer of Album Sales: Apple's iPod/iTunes
The thesis of the article is that basically while album sales are slumping, digital downloads are soaring. "Across the board, album sales fell 15 % in 2007, the sixth drop in the last seven years." Digital song downloads, on the other hand, increased "500% in the last three years."
According to the article: "No artist is immune to the reduction in sales. You have superstars that are creeping their way to a million units that used to sell 10 to 15 million." Alicia Keys' latest album "topped the Billboard’s music chart last week with 61,000 copies sold - nearly a historic low for a number one album in a single week."
What is also interesting is how the article lambasts the concept of the album as "an unfair marketing gimmick that had been forced on consumers for decades." I have to agree with this characterization. As sentimental as some of us are about our albums, the fact is that we have gone from an era when most songs on an album were really good, to an era where they try to get one or two decent songs and combine it with a lot of crap to sell an album. I can't begin to count how many albums (cds) I have spent fifteen bucks on because I really liked one or two of the songs and those are the only songs on the album I ever listen to.
The ability to download just the songs you want (preferably in high-res and without DRM) may very well kill off the sale of albums of any sort and would certainly put a damper on the record company's willingness to remaster and distribute a bunch of albums for high-res BRA distribution. This industry is changing so rapidly; it is hard to say where we will be in ten or fifteen years.
NBC recently published a report blaming falling cd sales on the rise of online distribution of music. Here is an article discussing that report:
NBC Points to the Leading Killer of Album Sales: Apple's iPod/iTunes
The thesis of the article is that basically while album sales are slumping, digital downloads are soaring. "Across the board, album sales fell 15 % in 2007, the sixth drop in the last seven years." Digital song downloads, on the other hand, increased "500% in the last three years."
According to the article: "No artist is immune to the reduction in sales. You have superstars that are creeping their way to a million units that used to sell 10 to 15 million." Alicia Keys' latest album "topped the Billboard’s music chart last week with 61,000 copies sold - nearly a historic low for a number one album in a single week."
What is also interesting is how the article lambasts the concept of the album as "an unfair marketing gimmick that had been forced on consumers for decades." I have to agree with this characterization. As sentimental as some of us are about our albums, the fact is that we have gone from an era when most songs on an album were really good, to an era where they try to get one or two decent songs and combine it with a lot of crap to sell an album. I can't begin to count how many albums (cds) I have spent fifteen bucks on because I really liked one or two of the songs and those are the only songs on the album I ever listen to.
The ability to download just the songs you want (preferably in high-res and without DRM) may very well kill off the sale of albums of any sort and would certainly put a damper on the record company's willingness to remaster and distribute a bunch of albums for high-res BRA distribution. This industry is changing so rapidly; it is hard to say where we will be in ten or fifteen years.
I guess my thought on this is this... If people have choices - then there is a problem. The reason I think there is hope here on blu-ray is because - from a high def standpoint - THERE IS NO CHOICE anymore..... HD-DVD is gone. The fact that Sony players DON'T play CD - is a good thing - they are again - eliminating the CHOICE. If they put something out on blu ray for music - then their players & licensing $$$ come to them. They have all the reason in the world to put The White Album on blu-ray...Royalties baby!!! Their CD royalties have long come and gone - I do believe. The whole point of SACD was to take every CD ever made - put in on SACD - re-up on the licensing fees - and go thru the past 30 years all over again. It failed because of many things - but one of them being the DVD-A bugger. If there is going to be an optical media in the future - this is it... and sony is primed to make a killing....once again.
MiTT
Super User
Everyone keeps talking about the failure or demise of SACD. I don't get that frankly. There is a pretty substantial back catalog, with numerous new releases every week. The mastering facilities that make SACD are still busy, and I have no problem buying new titles. Now, I will grant you that most of the content is classical or jazz, and not everyone here listens to those genre's of music, but just because you may not, it's premature to proclaim a format dead. SACD is pretty much the de facto standard bearer for the classical music industry right now, and it, along with vinyl, will have an audience among well heeled audiophiles for some time to come.
If a new high rez format in the form of audio dedicated Blu-Ray comes into the market I'll give it a listen to see if it warrants my attention, but i'll not be dumping my SACD's or vinyl to aquire it.
Well - I remember when CD arrived - the first music on CD - as far as I can recall was classical. The 'popular' (read stuff that sold millions of copies -which was very profitable) didn't come till later. I would go into the store and they would have all of this classical stuff - and Cat Stevens' Tea for the Tillerman. Then it caught on - and all of the new releases were in the CD format. And although I am greatful that there are new releases for SACD coming out - I was hoping that all of the bins would be hybrid sacd by now. It would just be nice if some of them were something other than a new version of Mahler's 2nd. They aren't and it doesn't appear as if the labels care to do that at all. Hence, my reference to 'failure'.
If you thought it was supposed to be a niche market product from the get-go - then I guess it was fairly successful. I always thought it was supposed to more or less 'take over the music world' as I more or less stated in my prior post. That didn't happen...So, the word 'failure' comes to mind. I listen to some jazz/classical -but not really enough of it to make me consider the new releases anything other than niche market releases that try to use SACD to get extra sales from the audiophile market. I am curious - have any of the new releases in the past year in SACD sold over 500,000 copies yet? I would be interested to know what those are.
And finally?? The marketing sucks - it is non-existent. I get an email from elusivedisc. But that is about it.
So - in these terms - it is a failure - not dead - just a failure...in my humble opinion - of course.
SACD has been successful in the genres that it is most suited to and has not penetrated the markets it is least suited to. This has been determined largely by market forces, and not any inherent failings in the format or any "format war" between SACD and DVDA. It has not "failed." It has successfully penetrated the markets where demand for it is the greatest.
I think one aspect to consider in this analysis is that there is tons of music material out there that just doesn't really benefit that much from being released on SACD. A lot of current pop music has little dynamic range to begin with, so why release it on a higher resolution format? And much of the older stuff just wasn't recorded that well or wasn't high enough quality of music to begin with to really benefit from higher resolution.
The key here is marketability. And if most folks that might buy these discs already have the CD version, they are gonna say: "Why do I need to spend $20 on a hybrid SACD version of the same music?" Most folks aren't going to want to replace their entire CD collection just to get higher res copies of songs that don't necessarily benefit that much from higher res. For that matter, most people don't have systems that even show off the benefits of the higher res formats.
Thus, the market penetration for SACD hybrids in the pop/rock music world has been pretty minimal. Just look at the SACD remixes of the Rolling Stones material. That was by no means a resounding success. If they aren't going to sell like hotcakes, the record companies aren't going to waste their limited resources producing them. That is just market forces at work.
That is why this format has found a home with Jazz and Classical releases. Because most releases in those formats can really benefit from enhanced resolution and the people buying music in those formats see the benefit of the format and are willing to pay for it. New and older releases in these genres sell in the SACD format, pure and simple.
You are complaining about the format failing because it has not taken over the specific genres of music that you care about. If it had penetrated pop and rock music, but not classical and jazz, you would probably be proclaiming it a resounding success because all of the discs you wanted to buy were available in that format. The simple fact is that SACD has been a successful format in the genres of music that it is most suited to. Market forces have prevented very much penetration into other genres that it is less-suited to. This wasn't just decided by record companies. This was ultimately decided by consumers with their wallets.
It is for this reason that I don't see BRA taking off unless it adds something else to the mix to entice consumers. I think you will begin to see lots of music BluRay discs with high-res audio and video -- concert footage, music videos, etc. I don't think you will see too much in the way of re-releases of vintage albums on high res BluRay audio only, because there is just not a great enough market demand for it.
MiTT
Super User
I couldn't have said it better Rich; very well put.
Richard, great rant :bowdown:
Completely agree, and we should be doing as much as we can to evangelize the value of a good system.
I love seeing the reactions when I have neighbors over after they've bragged about their systems and then get a taste of mine. They are like they just saw a Martian, incredulous that their music or video could sound so good.
Then I play an SACD or DVD-A and they are even further blown away.
To a person, they all express interest in upgrading their current systems in some degree.
Rich, agree that re-releases on BR will be spotty at best.
However, my hope is that new releases from contemporary artists (in any genre) will migrate to this higher-resolution and more compelling (addition of video) medium.
About six of my HD-DVD's (yeah, the dead format
)were audio only or some form of music concert (both classical and contemporary). They all sound about as good as a DVD-A or SACD.For instance, I can see Porcupine Tree releasing a future album on BluRay with high-rez audio tracks. The video portion might just be some stills for some tracks, and promo video on others.
Quite a few ‘classic’ rock / prog-rock albums have already been remixed for 5.1 in high resolution; it would not be too big a stretch to re-release those on any medium that supported the underlying resolution and channel count.
The fact that the BR medium is now no longer involved in a format war might give both studios and purchasers the courage to invest in this path.
Last edited:
Well - I think you have mis-interpreted what I said or meant. It isn' about what I like - it is about profit and volume. It is about keeping companies 'in the game' so to speak - and that revolves around money. That is what keeps companies producing SACD. I'd like to say 'Its because it sounds better and these companies are all about the greater good!!' But, companies will produce what they think they can make a profit on. The classical/jazz market - I am going to just guess here - may have more audiophiles - which would make SACD an easier sell. I agree with you on that - but not necessarily because the music gets so much more benefit.
Do you really think that when the R&D went into SACD- the millions spent - Do you think the target was a niche for classical and jazz - because as you say - 'It is better suited.....' ? I don't think they were thinking that at all....
Re: the Rolling stones issues you mention... What a FLOG UP!! SACD is not written anywhere in the fine print on those - You couldn't tell if it was a CD-re-issue or a SACD.
For the record -- I LOVE SACD... I like Jazz...and I have no ill will toward classical music. Most of my listening these days is either jazz or some jazz infused /accoustic pop. I wish that more new (not back catalog) releases would come out. And - believe it or not there are plenty of good non-jazz/classical recordings out there. Maybe you haven't heard them - but I have.
You may be right about the marketability of BRA for re-release of albums. If CD sales do continue to diminish though - and since DVD-A isn't around to kick anymore - the Blu ray platform gives artists a way to compete with 'free' by giving added bonuses / special packaging etc... It will all depend on hardware sales - of course...and those should be increasing shortly.
Call me a dinosaur - I'm not crazy about downloads.... I like having something in my grimy little hands when I purchase something - so I hope the physical disc doesn't go away.
I wish you well my brothers - lets keep hoping and fighting the fight...
Bimotarich
Well-known member
digital age
"Give me convenience or give me death".. I think Jello Biafra said that... or it was a title of a Dead Kennedys album and it rings true for most of todays media... convenience rules the roost. While I appreciate a physical medium, I realize their days are numbered. For hi end audio to survive it must become more convenient for the end user and cheaper... Sure you and I spend a large proportion of our income on our audio gear but most young kids have a 200 dollar MP3 player, 50 dollar head phones (some of which thankfully sound pretty damn good) and maybe a 100 dollar speaker/amp set up. Hard drives are cheap now, so I am just looking forward to the day when I can subscribe to a music library and listen to whatever I want whenever I want... I just hope they have a high res offering... iTunes now has hi res offerings and hopefully that is an indication that the companies are willing to offer us better quality provided we are wiling to pay for it. And a few companies are offering good media servers... I am about to buy one... I am just not sure which to get yet... but i did order a 1TD HD recently to make room for my collection which I hope to rip in Apple Lossless... In the meantime I will try to let as many people as I can, hear my system and tout the benefits of hi end...
PS Music stores are becoming all to rare, and those that exist are poorly stocked and seldom carry SACD or DVD-A nor do the employees even know about their existence... whenever I come across a store I always ask the employees where the SACDs or DVD-A is and I usually get a blank stare... and if they do indeed have them they are often mixed in with the rest of the stock so they are hard to find... very frustrating...
"Give me convenience or give me death".. I think Jello Biafra said that... or it was a title of a Dead Kennedys album and it rings true for most of todays media... convenience rules the roost. While I appreciate a physical medium, I realize their days are numbered. For hi end audio to survive it must become more convenient for the end user and cheaper... Sure you and I spend a large proportion of our income on our audio gear but most young kids have a 200 dollar MP3 player, 50 dollar head phones (some of which thankfully sound pretty damn good) and maybe a 100 dollar speaker/amp set up. Hard drives are cheap now, so I am just looking forward to the day when I can subscribe to a music library and listen to whatever I want whenever I want... I just hope they have a high res offering... iTunes now has hi res offerings and hopefully that is an indication that the companies are willing to offer us better quality provided we are wiling to pay for it. And a few companies are offering good media servers... I am about to buy one... I am just not sure which to get yet... but i did order a 1TD HD recently to make room for my collection which I hope to rip in Apple Lossless... In the meantime I will try to let as many people as I can, hear my system and tout the benefits of hi end...
PS Music stores are becoming all to rare, and those that exist are poorly stocked and seldom carry SACD or DVD-A nor do the employees even know about their existence... whenever I come across a store I always ask the employees where the SACDs or DVD-A is and I usually get a blank stare... and if they do indeed have them they are often mixed in with the rest of the stock so they are hard to find... very frustrating...
Similar threads
