Well, my BF 210 has a big problem and I purchased it new in July 2021. Here is what it is doing.

[Robert D]

ARC has quite a few settings to tailor how it alters the output. Default settings can often be improved upon. It just takes some trials to work through how each setting can alter the output as-measured by REW. I've had ARC and REW open concurrently and have made adjustments, then quickly measured the result with REW, and then made more adjustments, etc, etc, etc. Of course, every room and sub placement will react differently as far as the starting point is concerned, so how much adjustment is possible can largely be dependent upon these variables.

I've only encountered one type of grouping with my subs that had a better result with the sub in one spot needing ARC to be turned off to get a better result with Dirac. But in all other instances I found ARC to be beneficial, so far. And when I say beneficial, I mean the entire sequence of the chain from placement to running ARC to grouping to how the group is aligned (with or without PEQ in the miniDSP) and finally to using Dirac as the final EQing step.

ARC:On/Off and miniDSPEQ:On/Off when using room correction such as Dirac are options that one can decide to try if one has the time and desire.

On my system I just use the PBK on the BF 210 with the program on a laptop, and then run Audyssey through my Marantz AVR. I dont use REW or know how to do it yet. Im pretty happy with the results I got using what I have so I probably wont mess with anything else for now.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one Rob D, it's always great news to hear that ML fully supported their warranty and replaced your BF210 with a new one. Now that's service! And yes, this type of customer support is rarer than the Tasmanian Tiger! At one point I was actually thinking whether ML/ the dealer would eventually replace the entire unit ... and so they did! Outstanding.

Regarding whether ML subs are the best or nothing comes close, I guess just depends on your particular system. Just like cables and accessories, it's system dependent. For example, when I was on the hunt for that perfect matching to the CLX's, I did try about 6 different ones. From REL, Paradigm, Vandy, Velodyne, to one of our local Aussie brands, SGR I think it was. The other one I can't quite recall. Nearly all of these were fairly less in price compared to the BF series, so that was my rationale to see if any of the others would match well. Anyway, at the end of the day, the BF series seemed to be part of the missing puzzle, and then it all came together when I finally installed one, after nearly 3yrs of trial and error.

The "BF" concept clearly makes more sense, coming from the very same company that produces the electrostats. There's just something that's very right about the whole presentation. It's very well balanced, matches extremely well with ARC once dialed in correctly and overall performance is quite natural, not too much of anything nor is bass heavy.

Natural music is not bass heavy and doesn't even go anywhere lower than 20Hz in the first place. The human ear can only hear within the range of 20Hz to 20KHz, and that's perfect human hearing. The majority of us don't have perfect hearing, although we would like to proclaim that we can hear anything & everything. As we age, our "perfect " hearing ability diminishes. So I'm not even interested in subs going below 20Hz...and most natural recordings don't have music that's below that range, let alone even close to 20Hz. Even those excess HF's of 40KHz and above, forget it! We simply can't hear such HF's. Whoever claims they can must be a werewolf!

HT OTOH is thrilling and exciting, and most of it is artificial enhancements in sound, nothing much in terms of naturalness at all. For those who love earth shattering bass, obviously need to find the right sub/s to match well with that kind of gear. It's always great to have choices and be able to compare, just find the right one that suits your system gear and finances. It's like finding the right wifey... or partner.

Cheers matey, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Btw, Hope all is ok with your health...
Woof! RJ

 

[Rich]

Natural music is not bass heavy and doesn't even go anywhere lower than 20Hz. In the first place. The human ear can only hear within the range of 20Hz to 20KHz, and that's perfect human hearing. The majority of us don't have perfect hearing, although we would like to proclaim that we can hear anything & everything. As we age, our "perfect " hearing ability diminishes. So I'm not even interested in subs going below 20Hz...and most natural recordings don't have music that's below that range, let alone even close to 20Hz.

I agree with you, Big Dog RJ. For music alone, there is rarely need for a sub that goes below 20 Hz. And the ML subs are fine for that, even if overpriced in my personal opinion. But don’t forget that Robert is wanting a sub not just for music but also for home theater, and that’s a different story. Infrasonic frequencies can add a whole ‘nother layer to the home theater experience. Not to mention the overhead needed throughout the sub’s frequency range to achieve near reference level volume after EQ, especially in a larger room. Which is why I recommended PSA and Rhythmik subs to him. They excel at both music and home theater in a way the ML’s just can’t. It will be interesting to hear Robert’s perspective once he gets the sub and gets it dialed in.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

I’m going to echo Big Dog RJs comment. Let me just state everyone can buy and like what they want without the need to explain themself. And I think my previous comments may have been taken as if to make someone feel bad, not my intent and sorry if it wasn’t worded well.

For me, a BF212 comes cheaper than a SVS 16 Ultra. They look beautiful without being at the level you know you are just paying for Art. I can get them next day from ordering and parts the exact same thing ( I am 30 minutes from the factory).

Plus, I have never ever heard a subwoofer play as clean, fast, tight, and just seductive as them! Do they hit single digits? Nope. Teens? Maybe. After 20hz my crowsons are my friend, not subs. I’m sure I’d really love subs that play that low! But not enough to give up my precious BF212s (got another one coming!) Once you start stacking them and adding multiples you’d be surprised how good real low bass is.


Also, if anyone thinks they are getting 20hz from movies you are not. GASP! Did I just say that?? Please someone come down on me for being so stupid.


Anyway, movies are rolled off. Some a lot. Some A LOT. Some a little. Very very few not at all. Point is, unless you are using BEQ, don’t mention ULF because it’s a moot point.

I’m sure Robert will like some of the PSA qualities, but also putting up against 2 10s really isn’t fair and at the same time I can’t see how for music it will sound nearly as good frequency for frequency.

Curious everyone’s response to this post

 

[Rich]

For me, a BF212 comes cheaper than a SVS 16 Ultra.

How is this, exactly? The BF-212 retails for $4500. The SVS SB16-Ultra retails for $2300. You could get two of the SVS subs for just slightly more than one BF-212.

Also, if anyone thinks they are getting 20hz from movies you are not. GASP! Did I just say that?? Please someone come down on me for being so stupid.

Anyway, movies are rolled off. Some a lot. Some A LOT. Some a little. Very very few not at all. Point is, unless you are using BEQ, don’t mention ULF because it’s a moot point.

If there is so little content below 20 Hz, why do you have Crowsons? What signal do you think they’re amplifying? But I do agree that BEQ is necessary to get the best infrasonic experience. Regardless, I think the emphasis on the infrasonic ignores the point that the ML subs are small and underpowered for a home theater experience in a larger room (I’m talking 5000 cubic foot and larger). Room correction eats up headroom. Up to 6 dB worth. Large rooms require a lot of air movement for reference level volumes. For just a 79 dB average listening level, you’re going to get subwoofer peaks of 99 dB. To reach those dB levels in a large room without clipping or distortion, you need large woofers and powerful amps. ML’s subs just can’t compete in this arena with subs by the likes of PSA and Rhythmik.

And if you really think those subs can’t compete with the ML’s for sound quality with music, you are very much mistaken. ML doesn’t have any special “audiophile” sauce for subs. Several manufacturers make subs that compete with them for sound quality with music. Just my opinion, but I believe the ML’s are excellent, if overpriced, subs for music. But they can’t compete for serious home theater usage, especially in a larger room. Horses for courses.

 

[Robert D]

The new BF210 arrives tomorrow, and the old one ships out.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

How is this, exactly? The BF-212 retails for $4500. The SVS SB16-Ultra retails for $2300. You could get two of the SVS subs for just slightly more than one BF-212.



If there is so little content below 20 Hz, why do you have Crowsons? What signal do you think they’re amplifying? But I do agree that BEQ is necessary to get the best infrasonic experience. Regardless, I think the emphasis on the infrasonic ignores the point that the ML subs are small and underpowered for a home theater experience in a larger room (I’m talking 5000 cubic foot and larger). Room correction eats up headroom. Up to 6 dB worth. Large rooms require a lot of air movement for reference level volumes. For just a 79 dB average listening level, you’re going to get subwoofer peaks of 99 dB. To reach those dB levels in a large room without clipping or distortion, you need large woofers and powerful amps. ML’s subs just can’t compete in this arena with subs by the likes of PSA and Rhythmik.

And if you really think those subs can’t compete with the ML’s for sound quality with music, you are very much mistaken. ML doesn’t have any special “audiophile” sauce for subs. Several manufacturers make subs that compete with them for sound quality with music. Just my opinion, but I believe the ML’s are excellent, if overpriced, subs for music. But they can’t compete for serious home theater usage, especially in a larger room. Horses for courses.

Rich are you trying to pick a fight or are you actually curious?

I don’t want to disclose my dealer price, but keep in mind this: I am in Canada, so SVS costs more than it does for you good folks. Also, I pay nowhere near that price IN CANADAIN dollars let alone US.

(With that said I love them and ML so much I would pay CDN $5K for them, but I don’t and am just trying to be honest here!)

I have Crowsons because I do have BEQ! And my good sir if you have BEQ too and know what it is right on! That’s super cool and I’m sure your set up rocks!


Ouch man, your comments are a bit pointy though. With my 4 BF212s, I can hit 130DB down to 20hz in a 22x35’ room. 8’ ceiling. And I NEVER have any hint of distortion in anyway!

I love my subs, and other subs play probably just as well. Ok, may be there isn’t an audiophile secret sauce, but I have demod, home loaned, bought and sold and tried a whole bunch of subs cheaper and less expensive. Nothing sounds as good to me as ML. I’m glad you have found that with something else!

I have no problem with your comments except they cannot compete for serious home theater. Yes, you will need more of them. Maybe a lot more, but that is just because they are 12” drivers, totally respect you there. But! After owning multiple 18” velodyne DD+, and borrowing with intent to buy a Funk 21 I can say these MLs, frequency for frequency, smoked them.

Believe what you want, but what you want. I won’t trash other subs, I am sorry if I did. Please don’t trash ML subs.

 

[Rich]

I’m not trying to pick a fight, I promise. But I do enjoy a good debate. I really was curious though, given the discrepancy in pricing in the states. It honestly didn’t occur to me that you were in Canada. Makes sense now.

And I’m not trashing ML subs at all. I think they’re great subs. I’m simply stating my opinion that they are over-priced for what they are and that they aren’t really the appropriate choice for a serious home theater. Because of those factors, I now have a pair of Rythmik subs in my main music system with my KLH model Nines, and I have four PSA TV-21 iPal’s going into my home theater that is currently under construction. My point is just that the ML’s aren’t the be-all, end-all for subs, and there is good competition at much more reasonable price points.

Not gonna lie, I honestly find it hard to believe that even with four BF212’s that you can hit 130 dB down to 20 Hz. in a 6000+ cubic foot room, without distortion or clipping. Especially after room correction. But if so, then that’s great. I just find it very hard to believe. And regardless, at U.S. retail prices anyway, that’s $18,000 worth of subs! In the U.S., you can get some pretty amazing subs for a lot less than that. For you, it’s a no-brainer because you’re getting them at a discount. But for those of us in the U.S., I stand by my belief that they are over-priced compared to the competition and under-powered for serious home theater. I have to say, though, I am glad to hear from Robert that their customer service is still top-notch.

 

[Robert D]

Well, I will be running both PSA and Martin Logan together. If they integrate ok then it should sound very good.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

I’m not trying to pick a fight, I promise. But I do enjoy a good debate. I really was curious though, given the discrepancy in pricing in the states. It honestly didn’t occur to me that you were in Canada. Makes sense now.

And I’m not trashing ML subs at all. I think they’re great subs. I’m simply stating my opinion that they are over-priced for what they are and that they aren’t really the appropriate choice for a serious home theater. Because of those factors, I now have a pair of Rythmik subs in my main music system with my KLH model Nines, and I have four PSA TV-21 iPal’s going into my home theater that is currently under construction. My point is just that the ML’s aren’t the be-all, end-all for subs, and there is good competition at much more reasonable price points.

Not gonna lie, I honestly find it hard to believe that even with four BF212’s that you can hit 130 dB down to 20 Hz. in a 6000+ cubic foot room, without distortion or clipping. Especially after room correction. But if so, then that’s great. I just find it very hard to believe. And regardless, at U.S. retail prices anyway, that’s $18,000 worth of subs! In the U.S., you can get some pretty amazing subs for a lot less than that. For you, it’s a no-brainer because you’re getting them at a discount. But for those of us in the U.S., I stand by my belief that they are over-priced compared to the competition and under-powered for serious home theater. I have to say, though, I am glad to hear I’m not trying to pick a fight, I promise. But I do enjoy a good debate. I really was curious though, given the discrepancy in pricing in the states. It honestly didn’t occur to me that you were in Canada. Makes sense now.

And I’m not trashing ML subs at all. I think they’re great subs. I’m simply stating my opinion that they are over-priced for what they are and that they aren’t really the appropriate choice for a serious home theater. Because of those factors, I now have a pair of Rythmik subs in my main music system with my KLH model Nines, and I have four PSA TV-21 iPal’s going into my home theater that is currently under construction. My point is just that the ML’s aren’t the be-all, end-all for subs, and there is good competition at much more reasonable price points.

Not gonna lie, I honestly find it hard to believe that even with four BF212’s that you can hit 130 dB down to 20 Hz. in a 6000+ cubic foot room, without distortion or clipping. Especially after room correction. But if so, then that’s great. I just find it very hard to believe. And regardless, at U.S. retail prices anyway, that’s $18,000 worth of subs! In the U.S., you can get some pretty amazing subs for a lot less than that. For you, it’s a no-brainer because you’re getting them at a discount. But for those of us in the U.S., I stand by my belief that they are over-priced compared to the competition and under-powered for serious home theater. I have to say, though, I am glad to hear from Robert that their customer service is still top-notch.

My only gripe with your comment is you keep using the term ‘serious’ theater.

I’ll admit you can get the same SPL for less, but sound quality? Not for me. I have proven it to myself, I am only happy with BF212, or if there is similar, it costs more!

My set up (completed in 6 months?) Will include 16 BF212 - 3 in each corner and one on each end of 2 rows of seats. It will have 5 pairs of 15A speakers (Rear, 2 surrounds, Fronts and a center pair somehow behind the screen)

All seats with Crowsons, BHK600s or MC1.25s for each speaker. This to me is a serious theater. What it is to you, and what yours is to you, may be different.

But! If we can both watch a bass heavy movie and be super happy, THAT is a serious theater!
If you are ever in Canada let me know and you are welcome to hear for yourself!!

 

[Rich]

Congrats, TiBoneFramer! Yours, when completed, may be the only “serious” theater I’ve ever heard of that uses ML subwoofers. At the same time, it seems a bit of overkill unless you are doing a double bass array type of setup, no? You could easily get as good sound with much fewer subwoofers. Studies show that much more than four subs in a room adds very little additional smoothing to the frequency response. And 16 subs is going to take up a heck of a lot of space. Although I assume you are stacking them, so the space is columnar. Regardless, I would definitely love to hear it if I’m ever up your way.

I understand you love the sound of the ML subwoofers and getting them at a big discount it’s a no-brainer for you. But I’m guessing you’ve never auditioned a Rythmik or PSA subwoofer to know how they would compare. The servo feature of the Rythmik and the B&C driver of the PSA’s compare very favorably to the ML subs for music. I doubt you could pick out a sound quality difference between them in a blind test. And I think they easily best the ML’s for home theater. I’m not trying to knock your choices at all. Just really explaining why I recommended PSA to Robert over the ML.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Congrats, TiBoneFramer! Yours, when completed, may be the only “serious” theater I’ve ever heard of that uses ML subwoofers. At the same time, it seems a bit of overkill unless you are doing a double bass array type of setup, no? You could easily get as good sound with much fewer subwoofers. Studies show that much more than four subs in a room adds very little additional smoothing to the frequency response. And 16 subs is going to take up a heck of a lot of space. Although I assume you are stacking them, so the space is columnar. Regardless, I would definitely love to hear it if I’m ever up your way.

I understand you love the sound of the ML subwoofers and getting them at a big discount it’s a no-brainer for you. But I’m guessing you’ve never auditioned a Rythmik or PSA subwoofer to know how they would compare. The servo feature of the Rythmik and the B&C driver of the PSA’s compare very favorably to the ML subs for music. I doubt you could pick out a sound quality difference between them in a blind test. And I think they easily best the ML’s for home theater. I’m not trying to knock your choices at all. Just really explaining why I recommended PSA to Robert over the ML.

Why thank you Rich! That means a lot, since I know you have high standards and are a man of great taste!

Keep this in mind: the shear number is not for smoothing. It’s because: bass is not only on the floor, bass fills the air and there is something really cool about subs higher than the ground! It does sound better, try it! Also it lets me correct room modes developed by ceiling height. Plus then, gives me lots of head room and more cone area to ‘move and couple’ the air.

Hence, why I’m spending $35K on subs

Actually I owned 2 F18s from Rythmik! They were monster subs, super clean and killer. Very powerful, but ended up selling. BF212, though I needed 4 to compete, sounded better for me!

I have never tried PSA. I have a feeling they are very very good for music and ‘serious’ theater….too ugly for me. Not ugly, but too ugly for me

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Congrats, TiBoneFramer! Yours, when completed, may be the only “serious” theater I’ve ever heard of that uses ML subwoofers. At the same time, it seems a bit of overkill unless you are doing a double bass array type of setup, no? You could easily get as good sound with much fewer subwoofers. Studies show that much more than four subs in a room adds very little additional smoothing to the frequency response. And 16 subs is going to take up a heck of a lot of space. Although I assume you are stacking them, so the space is columnar. Regardless, I would definitely love to hear it if I’m ever up your way.

I understand you love the sound of the ML subwoofers and getting them at a big discount it’s a no-brainer for you. But I’m guessing you’ve never auditioned a Rythmik or PSA subwoofer to know how they would compare. The servo feature of the Rythmik and the B&C driver of the PSA’s compare very favorably to the ML subs for music. I doubt you could pick out a sound quality difference between them in a blind test. And I think they easily best the ML’s for home theater. I’m not trying to knock your choices at all. Just really explaining why I recommended PSA to Robert over the ML.

So actually I have demoed/owned/tried:

Velodyne DD+ 18
Rythmik F18
REL 212SX
JL F212V2
SVS SB16Ultra
Tekton Cinema Sub
Perlistein 215
Martin Logan Dynamo 1600X
Wilson Audio Thors Hammer
Funk Audio ??? 21”
Something by HSU with a 15”
Something from JTR with 24”????

Both the something’s and Funk were buddies of mine. Hence why I don’t recall

BF212 won for me!

 

[Rich]

Why thank you Rich! That means a lot, since I know you have high standards and are a man of great taste!

Keep this in mind: the shear number is not for smoothing. It’s because: bass is not only on the floor, bass fills the air and there is something really cool about subs higher than the ground! It does sound better, try it! Also it lets me correct room modes developed by ceiling height. Plus then, gives me lots of head room and more cone area to ‘move and couple’ the air.

Hence, why I’m spending $35K on subs

Actually I owned 2 F18s from Rythmik! They were monster subs, super clean and killer. Very powerful, but ended up selling. BF212, though I needed 4 to compete, sounded better for me!

I have never tried PSA. I have a feeling they are very very good for music and ‘serious’ theater….too ugly for me. Not ugly, but too ugly for me

With that number of subs, you should seriously consider a double bass array with a Trinnov Altitude processor for your home theater. Do some research on Trinnov’s upcoming bass management algorithm which will be (at least initially) designed to work with double bass array setups. Could result in some amazing bass that eliminates all room modes. Just a thought.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

With that number of subs, you should seriously consider a double bass array with a Trinnov Altitude processor for your home theater. Do some research on Trinnov’s upcoming bass management algorithm which will be (at least initially) designed to work with double bass array setups. Could result in some amazing bass that eliminates all room modes. Just a thought.

Have a 64 (?) on order. Problem is I love my MX180! Room perfect sounds really good and love the Mc colours! Gonna be hard to give it up but yea with the number of subs I have I already decided to at least give the Trinny it’s fair shot!

 

[TiBoneFramer]

With that number of subs, you should seriously consider a double bass array with a Trinnov Altitude processor for your home theater. Do some research on Trinnov’s upcoming bass management algorithm which will be (at least initially) designed to work with double bass array setups. Could result in some amazing bass that eliminates all room modes. Just a thought.

Thanks for the thought! I appreciate you looking out for me

 

[Rich]

Have a 64 (?) on order. Problem is I love my MX180! Room perfect sounds really good and love the Mc colours! Gonna be hard to give it up but yea with the number of subs I have I already decided to at least give the Trinny it’s fair shot!

I’ll be interested to hear which one you go with and why. I’ve got a JBL SDP-75-24 (which is just a re-badged Trinnov) for the home theater I’m constructing. I went with the JBL version because it has the anechoic data files for the JBL speakers I’ll be using in the theater. You should definitely look into the double bass array concept. The system you’re designing is perfect for it. Good luck with it!

 

[Robert D]

I’m going to echo Big Dog RJs comment. Let me just state everyone can buy and like what they want without the need to explain themself. And I think my previous comments may have been taken as if to make someone feel bad, not my intent and sorry if it wasn’t worded well.

For me, a BF212 comes cheaper than a SVS 16 Ultra. They look beautiful without being at the level you know you are just paying for Art. I can get them next day from ordering and parts the exact same thing ( I am 30 minutes from the factory).

Plus, I have never ever heard a subwoofer play as clean, fast, tight, and just seductive as them! Do they hit single digits? Nope. Teens? Maybe. After 20hz my crowsons are my friend, not subs. I’m sure I’d really love subs that play that low! But not enough to give up my precious BF212s (got another one coming!) Once you start stacking them and adding multiples you’d be surprised how good real low bass is.


Also, if anyone thinks they are getting 20hz from movies you are not. GASP! Did I just say that?? Please someone come down on me for being so stupid.


Anyway, movies are rolled off. Some a lot. Some A LOT. Some a little. Very very few not at all. Point is, unless you are using BEQ, don’t mention ULF because it’s a moot point.

I’m sure Robert will like some of the PSA qualities, but also putting up against 2 10s really isn’t fair and at the same time I can’t see how for music it will sound nearly as good frequency for frequency.

Curious everyone’s response to this post

Dang, and the Canadian dollar isnt worth as much as an American dollar. Right now its $1 American = $1.37 Canadian Dollars. I guess its your proximity to the factory that gets you such low prices. Perhaps the Martin Logan is sold in Canadian dollars, since its made there, and that saves you some? You must have to pay a VAT tax on the SVS since its coming into Canada?

 

[Robert D]

The new sub was delivered mid morning and the old one was just picked up. The trucking company ABF handled it all. Hats off to them. The driver today was awesome and when I told him about my surgery he offered to bring the sub into the home and even unboxed it for me! Really nice guy too, my kinda guy. He came back later in the day and picked up the old subwoofer. The new one is set up and running great.
I will wait for about another 4 weeks until it is safe for me to lift more weight and then order the PSA subwoofer. Im very glad that Martin Logan did such a great job with customer service. Anyone out there looking to buy new from them, you can be assured that they stand behind their warranty and that they make it easy to service. Just make sure that you buy from an authorized dealer.

 

[Fidji99]

Have a 64 (?) on order. Problem is I love my MX180! Room perfect sounds really good and love the Mc colours! Gonna be hard to give it up but yea with the number of subs I have I already decided to at least give the Trinny it’s fair shot!

A) there is nothing like Trinnov 64, max is 48 ch, with up to 64 outputs (used for bi-tri-quad amping some channels.)
B) talk to people at Trinnov as you might be in for a nasty surprise next year, they are very helpful.
C) BF will NOT work with their new game changing Active Acoustics. This is positively confirmed.

you might want to look elsewhere for AV processor, or get in touch with some professional calibrators, if you insist on BF. Storm Audio and their DiRAC ART might be more suitable, although no idea how it handles dipole speakers. Trinnov works wonders for electrostats.

D) any proper subwoofer system treated with new Trinnov Bass Management will be better in multiples compared to even best subs without. I had a chance to attend their demo in Barcelona.

Just a friendly advice, as I am also in the preparation phase of building new ultimate cost-no-object (almost ) Home theatre. It hurts me to say - but there are MUCH better subs out there, in terms of performance.

@Rich - it is not DBA , although it requires subs on the front and rear wall.