Vantage impression after roughly one month

[Bevensee]

Hi all,
This thread is a spin-off of my previous thread, where I described some problems. As the problems are now gone, I deemed it unfair to keep on posting under the same headline. Hence the new tread.

After spending quite considerable time with the Vantages - especially here in the holiday -. I must say that I now have the best sound I have ever heard right here in my own living room! Yes, I have heard more expensive systems elsewhere, but this system is mine, and voiced to my taste.

My front-end is mainly vinyl: A Michell Orbe (wallmounted) with an Ortofon Rondo Bronce in an Audiomods arm. My RIAA is a DIY tube kit with step-up trafos (World Designs WDPHONO3S XL) and NOS tubes. Its as quit as any RIAA I've ever heard provided that it's kept clear of hum-fields. My amplifiers are from Vincent Audio. The tube preamt SA-T1 and the hybrid monoblocks SP-T100. They run in class A up to 20 Watts in 4 Ohm, and I doubt that I ever go beyond that - so no crossover distortion for me.

I am quite sensitive to "hot" or aggressive treble, so digital is not my cup of tea. Besides, I aminly listen to classical, and mint pressings of the great "golden-age" recordings are often available second hand for a song. Apart from classical, I listen to rock and jazz. I prioritize correct timbre over ultimate dynamics.

My impression of the Vantages are that they are truly special! They don't really care what I give them, the just deliver. The integration between the panel and the bass is formidable. On Richter's recording of Dvorak's cello concerto, the rasp of the strings and the fullness of the body are completely integrated. Well done Voitko! The detail and space in the top is beyond any dynamic drivers I've ever heard, and the fact that there is no phase or dispersion discontinuities between the voice and the sibilants of female singers make opera a very special experience. The only dynamic speaker I have ever heard the approaches this is the Dynaudio Consequence at 10 times the price of the Vantages.

Regarding bass slam and dynamics, I have just watched Iron Man, and really missed nothing. But I'm not the most fanatic in this regard, so other listeners may disagree.

But the quality of the bass! I heard a quite fantastic live recording of Stan Getz with Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen (The Great Dane) on bass. It was amazing! The egality (non-boomines) of bass is on par with the best I've heard, and leaves conventional reflex loaded systems in the dust! I cannot understand why ML never developed the transmission line loading further! It's true that it doesn't go as low as a passive radiator system like the Ethos, but it also has less overhang due to the very small moving mass of the air in the line. And it's not resonant like a conventional port.

Anyway, I am one happy camper now, and going back to box...NoWay!

 

[roberto]

Hola Jesper. The Vantage was the best selling Martin Logan model here in Costa Rica. Quality vs price was the clue. The quality of the bass, also, the right size of the instruments, the stage, and also their transparent of Martin Logan sound. Enjoy them, my friend! It is good to know that everything is now right and singing for you. Happy listening!

 

[Bernard]

When you say Richter's recording of Dvorak's Cello Concerto, do you really mean Rostropovich's recording (on DG)? That's a wonderful recording. The only Richter I know (Sviatoslav) was a pianist.

 

[Bevensee]

Im not surprised the Vantage sold well in Costa Rica. When I bought them, I did not expect to reach for the bass heavy records os my collectiin, but this is what I do. Simply because it is so free from boom. I have the control at -6 dB, so I dont have much beolow 40 Hz. But I prefer that. Its not a sub, but to my ears, its the perfect woofer. And even plays lower mids. Even with Leonard Cohen, I wiuld have never guessed tge crossover was as high as 400.

Jesper

 

[Bevensee]

Bernard, of cause you are right. But I have also listened to their wonderfull tripel concerto together with my all-time favorite fiddle Oistrach, so I got their names mixed up. And now I realize that I sound like a Karajan fan, which I most certainly is not. But he has made wonderful recordings. Including the already mentioned as well as Carmen (surprisingly), Meistersinger (a political statement, and a musical masterpiece) and Lohengrin. O

 

[Tosh]

But the quality of the bass! I heard a quite fantastic live recording of Stan Getz with Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen (The Great Dane) on bass. It was amazing! The egality (non-boomines) of bass is on par with the best I've heard, and leaves conventional reflex loaded systems in the dust! I cannot understand why ML never developed the transmission line loading further! It's true that it doesn't go as low as a passive radiator system like the Ethos, but it also has less overhang due to the very small moving mass of the air in the line. And it's not resonant like a conventional port.

Hej Jesper!
Vantage is a ported (reflex) box (although the port is rectangular) and not a transmission line. The lack of 'bass overhang' is likely due to the built-in electronic XO and the lack of an inductor coil in a passive XO. Hope you're still happy!

 

[Bevensee]

Hej Jesper!
Vantage is a ported (reflex) box (although the port is rectangular) and not a transmission line. The lack of 'bass overhang' is likely due to the built-in electronic XO and the lack of an inductor coil in a passive XO. Hope you're still happy!

Nope. It's a transmission line (folded). See the image below. As far as I know, it's the only transmission line theyve ever made. i would love to see them look further into transmission lines and aperiodic cabinets.

 

[Rich]

I cannot understand why ML never developed the transmission line loading further!

I have never understood this either. It seems like a perfect complement to ML's electrostatic panel. Roger Sanders uses it to excellent effect in his electrostatic hybrid speakers.

 

[Bernard]

Bernard, of cause you are right. But I have also listened to their wonderfull tripel concerto together with my all-time favorite fiddle Oistrach, so I got their names mixed up. And now I realize that I sound like a Karajan fan, which I most certainly is not. But he has made wonderful recordings. Including the already mentioned as well as Carmen (surprisingly), Meistersinger (a political statement, and a musical masterpiece) and Lohengrin. O

Jesper, I have that Triple, but I prefer it by Geza Anda/Schneiderhan/et al. But neither compares to hearing it live by the Beaux Arts Trio; that was amazing. Karajan did make some good recordings, but he was unusual; his 1962 Beethoven 9th was great, but his Beethoven 6th sounds like he was in a rush to get to his next appointment!

 

[Bevensee]

Jesper, I have that Triple, but I prefer it by Geza Anda/Schneiderhan/et al. But neither compares to hearing it live by the Beaux Arts Trio; that was amazing. Karajan did make some good recordings, but he was unusual; his 1962 Beethoven 9th was great, but his Beethoven 6th sounds like he was in a rush to get to his next appointment!

I have never heard that, but I will be sure to pick it up if I spot it! I never cared much for Karajans Beethoven symphonies, except for his '62 9th. But my favorite 9th is Solti's early one with Chicago recorded at the University of Illinois. But the most moving Beethoven 9th I ever heard was Bernstein's "Ode an die Freihart". I am born in Denmark in 1974 and grew up under the thread of nuclear annihilation. My grandfather was taken prisoner by the Nazis during the German occupation of Denmark in WW2. Suddenly in the late 80's a cloud lifted. Bernstein put the moment into music at the very place where the Berlin wall had stood only a few months before with an orchestra from east and west. I will always look back upon my high-school days as the period where world peace actually seemed real. And this memory will always be accompanied by Bernstein's ode to freedom.

 

[MPS]

Nope. It's a transmission line (folded). See the image below. As far as I know, it's the only transmission line theyve ever made. i would love to see them look further into transmission lines and aperiodic cabinets.

Hmmm... It looks like bass reflex and ML says:"Low Frequency Transducer 8" (20.3cm) cast basket, high excursion, aluminum cone with extended throw drive assembly, non-resonance asymmetrical chamber format, bass reflex"
Where does the transmission line come into play?

 

[Bevensee]

Hmmm... It looks like bass reflex and ML says:"Low Frequency Transducer 8" (20.3cm) cast basket, high excursion, aluminum cone with extended throw drive assembly, non-resonance asymmetrical chamber format, bass reflex"
Where does the transmission line come into play?

Look at the picture above. It's a folded (5 times) channel. I.e. a transmission line. I have no clue why ML marketing chose to "just" call it reflex loaded, but I suppose you could claim that transmission line is a subclass of reflex loading. In any case, the "folded line loading" (can we agree on that term ) will provide a broad, aperiodic damping of the cone. I suppose this is what they mean by non-resonance. In exactly the same way as a transmission line. In most transmission lines, you will see that the cross sectionis either decreasing or increasing. In the latter case, we usually call it a horn. If you would label the Vantage a bass reflex, the port length would be almost 2 meters (5 X 40 cm).

 

[Tosh]

Jesper, I had assumed ML was correct when they stated 'bass reflex' in their own specs....last time I do that! Carry on!

 

[Bernard]

Jesper, I do have that Bernstein 9th (bought it in Vienna the year after the wall came down).

Check this out:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GBaHPND2QJg

 

[Peter_Klim]

Thanks for the link Bernard. and then i got a good laugh at the next video in line: Big Girl Lulu Trying To Work The Pole On America's Got Talent!

 

[MPS]

Look at the picture above. It's a folded (5 times) channel. I.e. a transmission line. I have no clue why ML marketing chose to "just" call it reflex loaded, but I suppose you could claim that transmission line is a subclass of reflex loading. In any case, the "folded line loading" (can we agree on that term ) will provide a broad, aperiodic damping of the cone. I suppose this is what they mean by non-resonance. In exactly the same way as a transmission line. In most transmission lines, you will see that the cross sectionis either decreasing or increasing. In the latter case, we usually call it a horn. If you would label the Vantage a bass reflex, the port length would be almost 2 meters (5 X 40 cm).

Folded port does not necessary equal to transmission line. The port looks quite large so I assume it needs to be quite long anyway. Don't have any experience with Vantages just wondering..

 

[Bevensee]

Folded port does not necessary equal to transmission line. The port looks quite large so I assume it needs to be quite long anyway. Don't have any experience with Vantages just wondering..

I think the definitions are somewhat loose. I suppose that any enclosure where the back wave is used to generate output through a port can be termed "bass reflex", but I'm not an expert. Most conventional (short port) reflex systems have a quite resonant port giving a peaky and sometimes boomy output. Thy tend to damp the woofercone in a relatively narrow band. In aperiodic enclosures, where the back wave "escapes" through a damped vent often gives a more controlled cone damping with less boom at the price of reduced low frequency extension. Most transmission lines are a sub-class of quarter-wave tubes, where the length of the line often (though not always) is chosen as 1/4 of the wavelength at the resonant frequency of the woofer. If the line expands, it will amplify low frequencies like in a horn. These sometimes generate output all the way up in the mid range, and can have quite comb-like response. If the line contracts, we have what most people know as transmission line. If the line is damped, the back wave can be almost completely absorbed. Think the original B&W Nautilus. If we assume that the Vantage is indeed some sort of transmission line or quarter wave tube, we can estimate the peak output of the port from it's length as Fpeak = 343m/s/(4*5*0.35m)=49 Hz. Below this frequency, port output will be 3 dB down at 34 Hz. This - somewhat crude - estimate correlate very well with the performance of the Vantage. But who knows what the DSP is adding to this?

 

[jmschnur]

I found the addition of a good sub greatly added to my enjoyment of the Vantage for Jazz with good bassists and for cello in some pieces etc.

Passos and Ron Carter's cd sounded much better.

Howeve on its own my Vantage speakers have given me many moments of great listening prior to the sub.


J

 

[roberto]

Hola...I am going to chime and I would say: I do trust my ears. Bass energy is one thing, and to reproduce the feeling of the musician(s) is other. My internal debate (me talking to myself) is with my liking vs specs, it had leaded me to find what I do like as a primal option. I do not care about the specs, or better say, do I understand the bass notes? In our place, we have to deal with the standing waves. These resonances, some are very important, because it is a natural behavior of the instrument, and others belong to our own room. How do we know which are right? Well, listening a lot to unplugged music. This is my tool. When I listen to a double bass player in Jazz like Ron Carter, Ray Brown, Marcus Miller, Brian Bromberg, John Patitucci, Anthony Jackson, John Clayton, Abraham Laboriel, etc...there are so many good musicians out there (here is a list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bass_guitarists) and what I like is to get their feeling as a primal route, then how the bass notes are doing. Do I have too much bass energy? Is the bass player next to me, at my golden seating position? or is he-she at the stage with the other musician(s)? There are only few musical instruments that makes very deep notes like a church organ, but usually, as an example, the last A note of The Big Concert Piano, has a frequency of 27.5Hz, and the piano itself is bass shy. It has a lot of difficult to reproduce this lower musical notes... around 40Hz is where it starts to be very easy to understand. Even our own ears do have problem with the lower notes. So, the best way to do a comparison with the real thing. Her is where our hearing skills must shine. My liking is to have less bass over all, enough to understand what the musician(s) is doing and the deepest notes will not be like an earth-wake. I do not like to have my guts moved. Again, this is my liking. I just visited an owner of a pair of CLXs, and he plays his system very loud, and also has two Descent I subs, providing a lot of bass energy. This is his liking. So, getting to our point here...there are a lot of ways of how reproduce the bass, just choose the one the you really liked most! Seal cabinet, transmission line, bass reflex, tuned port, etc, I just listen, and if it is right, I like it, if it is not, them I do not, not matter the type of design. All have their own benefits and also problems. It is, our system, our liking, and your music!. The Vantage model shines with its quality of the bass, I do not hear distortion as I do from others, costing twice or more of the Vantage price. I do like a lot how the bass notes are reproduced and I find myself tapping with my feet along with the rhythm of the music! Happy listening!

 

[jmschnur]

Following Jon Fo's advice separating the low bass from the mains has helped to reduce the modes (16x8x14) at lower frequencies . I have tried to carefully place my sub(s) to decrease the mode effects while placing my electrostats to enhance imaging and timbre. This worked with my Vantages and now with my new Montis.

We do calibrate our ears frequently at the Kennedy center here in DC and also Blues Alley for Jazz.

Room modes can have harmful effects on low bass. Room treatments and proper placement is quite useful. In our case the two subs have helped a lot after very careful placement and phasing .

After all is done the ML sound is truly exquisite .

J