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Upgrade power amp ?

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John Terranova

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Greetings all,
I just joined the club and I find this all fascinating. I have a quick question. I am thinking about upgrading my amp. It's a Aragon 4004 driving a pair of Aerius. I wish there was more "slam". Perhaps Aerius don't do slam. Also, how about suggestions regarding class A amp driving ML's and speaker cables.
Thanks all,
John in Atlanta
 

JonFo

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John, welcome to the club.

In general, dipoles are hard pressed to do ‘slam’. As that’s generally a term connoting mid-bass to mid-range force.
Due to rear wave cancellations, no dipole, especially narrow frame ones like the Aerius and smaller, will ever really do really well there.
However, the bass driver in your Aerius is crossed over pretty high (around 500Hz if I recall) and should provide some of that ‘slam’. Might be time to check that it’s in good shape before swapping the amp. The Aragon 4004 has good current delivery, so it’s not likely the culprit.

Another logical thing to look at is the placement in the room and the general room acoustics. Those can have the most impact of all. See some of the other threads around here covering that.

Cheers,
 

twich54

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I concur with Jon, besides I believe there were two versions(one being an i version ??) of your speaker(different bass driver set-up I believe) which would have an impact possibly on the amps performance. I'm assuming it is one of the older Aragon units (early / mid 90's) , the newer pieces I believe are a step down.
 
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John Terranova

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Dave,
Thanks for the reply. My Aerius is not an "I" version and the Aragon amp is an early 1990 model. I may experiment with room placement. It's a big room, 16 x 14 feet, with a sloping ceiling that rises to 2 stories. Maybe the Aerius is too small for the room.

Thanks,
John
 

Reverb

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Welcome to the club John.

If your looking for bass slam, take a look at Krell amps. They are high current amps that are known for there first class bass response.
 

Robin

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Slammin' system...

John,

Welcome to the ML Club!

I am curious what percentage do you listen to Music vs. HT?

IMHO, for Class "A" amplifiers: #1). I would suggest Anthem Statement series amplifiers. #2). Sim Audio amplifiers. #3). Cary audio amplifiers.

For excellent recommendations of high quality speaker cables please check-out these threads:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=1075&highlight=Speaker+cable

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=796&highlight=Speaker+cable

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=1387&highlight=Speaker+cable

The above threads is excellent discussion about IC and speaker cables. Dan is sooo wonderful sharing his great exhaustive testing and comparisons, which has helped everyone here at the ML Club - myself included. I (we) are very grateful and appreciative to Dan for all of his hard work, for the good of the cause... :D
HTH

:D It is good to have you here.
 
J

John Terranova

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Robin,

Thanks for your reply. My listening is 100% 2 channel music. Thanks for showing me those web sites.


John in Hotlanta ;)
 

C.A.P

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more bass=Krell = more bass !!!!!but the placement will also have a big factor of the logans too
 
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alex

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check pass amps, they sound great, but i had the best results on electrostatics with muse amps, they don't have deep bass but it's very natural, and if you need more i found out that velodyne hgs or dd series are the best way to go. (of course we are talking about SS amps, tubes sound better)
 

kach22i

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I think JonFo is correct about the Aerius crossover and it's potential to deliver slam.

I think the fuller sound of pure tube pre/power adds to the slam factor. I say this because I believe tubes capture the middle part of the note (the body) whereas solid state despite it's higher current delivery potential - captues the begining and end of each note (in a broad perspective kind of way).

I think Velodyne has a new way of hooking up a subwoofer which will add more bottom, and perhaps you can adjust it so the slam shines though this new configuration (playing with the crossover point).

If all else fails - SLAM a few cold ones yourself.....................that always does it for me. :D
 

DTB300

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kach22i said:
I think the fuller sound of pure tube pre/power adds to the slam factor.
Sorry to disagree here, but I have "yet" to hear a Tube Power Amp that can provide the drive, authority, and control of the low end like a good solid state amp can do - either on cones or planars.

I would agree that the Midrange is hard to beat with a Tube Amp, but I am pretty close with my Plinius running in Class A. The bass I get from my CLSIIz's (running by themselves without the sub) driven by the Plinius is the best I have heard yet in my setup. No tube amps that I auditioned even came close.

But now with the Vantage and Summit having their own powered Bass section (solid state I might add), one can run tubes on the panels, but still have great bass.

Dan
 

kach22i

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DTB300 said:
Sorry to disagree here, but I have "yet" to hear a Tube Power Amp that can provide the drive, authority, and control of the low end like a good solid state amp can do - either on cones or planars.
I think we should clarify that the bass most people hear (in lieu of feel) is the lower midrange and upper bass range of around 500Hz. This is the range responsible for "SLAM, SLAP, PUNCH " from what I've read over the years. True bass is at around around 50Hz (and lower), which is where a subwoofer can start to safely cross over.

FYI:
I was told to set my subwoofer (with Aerius speakers) cross over at around 60Hz .
 

roberto

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John Terranova said:
Greetings all,
I just joined the club and I find this all fascinating. I have a quick question. I am thinking about upgrading my amp. It's a Aragon 4004 driving a pair of Aerius. I wish there was more "slam". Perhaps Aerius don't do slam. Also, how about suggestions regarding class A amp driving ML's and speaker cables.
Thanks all,
John in Atlanta
John, welcome to the club. I think that you have a very good power amp. The lack of slam, IMHO, is your Aerius woofer.
Don´t get me wrong here, all Aerius users, he wants more of what he is getting, not saying that there isn´t any.
You need a SL-3 model of 10" woofer or Ascent model or similar. This will provide what your are looking for. Hope this can help...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

kach22i

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roberto said:
You need a SL-3 model of 10" woofer or Ascent model or similar.
Roberto, you are the oracle of the forum, but I'm going to have to differ with you on this one. If John Terranova said he wanted more bass or deeper bass, then you would be 100% correct. Maybe thats what John T really means and I just don't know it.

If J.T. wants more presence, more bass, more solid sound he should get that with a subwoofer (or a larger M/L) - but the right one, and the right way to hook it up.

No Martin Logan I've listened to has more slam than the original Aerius, and I thank the high cross over point for that - not the woofer.
 

roberto

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kach22i said:
Roberto, you are the oracle of the forum, but I'm going to have to differ with you on this one. If John Terranova said he wanted more bass or deeper bass, then you would be 100% correct. Maybe thats what John T really means and I just don't know it.

If J.T. wants more presence, more bass, more solid sound he should get that with a subwoofer (or a larger M/L) - but the right one, and the right way to hook it up.

No Martin Logan I've listened to has more slam than the original Aerius, and I thank the high cross over point for that - not the woofer.
Hola...thanks for your kind words and you honor me whith it, but I think that I am far away of being an oracle...thanks again (with all respect). Perhaps you are right...it could be a semantics problem...I´m not understanding the meaning of Slam...for me slam means don´t throw the door = don't slam the door...is this right? For sound, what he wants is, in my understanding for slam, more sound pressure, more dynamic sound, more bigger sound, more shaking sound, and with a sub, what he will get is only deeper bass, as you said. Bigger stat panels and bigger woofers will, driven by his Aragon 4004, be a killer sound with big slam. He wants to move air and the only way is with bigger speakers. I do understand your position with the Aerius. They are a great ML speakers, and the first time that I had them, I was really impressed. But then, the SL-3 came out, and of that I do recall on one on one, the SL-3 were more slaming than the Aerius...perhaps I'm wrong. Still my advise is, try to listen them and tell us what do you think regarding the SL-3 versus the Aerius with the same amplifier Aragon 4004. Again, thanks for your nice words regarding this crazy guy who is in love with any Martin Logan sound. Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 
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twich54

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John Terranova said:
Greetings all,
I just joined the club and I find this all fascinating. I have a quick question. I am thinking about upgrading my amp. It's a Aragon 4004 driving a pair of Aerius. I wish there was more "slam". Perhaps Aerius don't do slam. Also, how about suggestions regarding class A amp driving ML's and speaker cables.
Thanks all,
John in Atlanta
John, I know I have been listening to my Plinius SA-102 for only a little over two days in my sysytem but what Dan said in his earlier thread is oh so true. The "shits and giggles" factor this amp has imparted on my listening pleasure exceeds what my old Threshold did to my Maggie MG-IIIA some twenty plus years ago !! It trully does a superb job from top to bottom, maybe some of the best tube gear will better it with rescpect to middle and upper registers but when you factor in the lower octaves...forget about it !!

Take a test drive with one of these amps, Plinius has just released its successor the SA-103 which I am told is "cosmetically" different, I think you would find this amp to your liking. Keep in mind though this amp MUST have space, ideally a smaller amp stand which will allow the heat sink fins to be open top to bottom for better cooling.

Good Luck !!
 

DTB300

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twich54 said:
Take a test drive with one of these amps, Plinius has just released its successor the SA-103 which I am told is "cosmetically" different, I think you would find this amp to your liking. Keep in mind though this amp MUST have space, ideally a smaller amp stand which will allow the heat sink fins to be open top to bottom for better cooling.
In regards to the new look....The front (light location and switches) and back (blue color now) panel are different looking, but the thick face plate and the signature heat sinks are still there - hence it still has that "Eye Candy" look to it. Here is a link:

http://www.plinius.com/products/sa103.asp

Dan
 

Kruppy

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On a Plinius side note:

I've been to New Zealand (both the north and south island). I would have never guessed that Plinius was a Kiwi company (Did not make it to Manawatu where they are located). As far as I know NZ does not have much industry and import a lot. I believe their largest exports are wool and of all things venison (deer farms were everywhere). The north island is tropical while the southern end of the south island has glaciers. NZ is by far the most beautiful place I've been to. At the time (late 1998) the US dollar was worth 2 NZ dollars and an incredible bargin (not including the flight). I would go back in a heartbeat......
 

kwr

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Kruppy said:
On a Plinius side note:

I've been to New Zealand (both the north and south island). I would have never guessed that Plinius was a Kiwi company (Did not make it to Manawatu where they are located)....... The north island is tropical while the southern end of the south island has glaciers.QUOTE]

TROPICAL!!!!! NZ is where I was born and have spent most of my life. Temperate is kind. It is in the middle of the roaring forties (45 south is just north of Oamaru in the South Island) windy,wet and is I agree one of the world's beautiful places.

Perraux is also manufactured there. Image speakers have a great reputation in New Zealand but are not exported as far as I know.

Kevin
 
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