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Pneumonic

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I understand the intent of the switch box. But it has a bunch of connectors, wires, switches etc; can you categorically state that they contribute NOTHING to the sound? That is what I am questioning.
I can’t speak for other switchers but the one I use (see attached schematic) is nothing more than an assembly of passive components ... namely attenuators, jacks, binding posts, wire and switches/relays which, if they are functioning properly, will have no effect on the integrity of the signal. This can be confirmed by taking some simple measurements. Objectively, it'll be performing as would a straight piece of short wire.

Also note. I only use the switch AFTER I have measured for levels of distortion. If I am testing devices which both have inaudible levels of measured distortion then I expect the ABX results to show that the person doing the test will be unable to consistently note differences. This would be in agreement with the measurements which indicates that neither device has audible levels of distortion so ….. there is nothing for the person doing the test to hear.

I find there is no point in testing devices were 1, or both, of the devices has measured levels of audible distortion since I would expect that someone might be able to tell the difference . This would be in agreement with the measurements which indicates that 1 or both devices has audible levels of distortion so ….. there might be some difference that a person testing could hear.

AB Switcher_Page_2.jpg

In these discussions we tend to lose sight of the fact that this is all about the pleasure of music, not about things looking great on an oscilloscope, so if it SOUNDS better, it IS better, and hang the engineering analysis and psychoacoustic analysis....right Dave? :)
For me personally, I use tools to listen to my audio gear. My ears being one such tool. But, knowing that our ears aren’t all that accurate when it comes to determining the things that are responsible for what we humans hear, I have decided to use additional tools - namely electronic instruments - which are capable of measuring to levels far below what a human being can discern. IOW, I use electronic instruments to listen to the things that the human ear is incapable of hearing.

For me, this offers the most consistent, complete and accurate way to test, and ultimately judge, audio gear.
 

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twich54

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so if it SOUNDS better, it IS better, and hang the engineering analysis and psychoacoustic analysis....right Dave? :)
ahhhh Bernard, you're getting good, kinda like Gordon, trying to bait me !!

remember ..........when you , Gordon, Mark , me, whomever says it sounds better it's our brains perception of what the ear has fed it it. Subject to all the bias we have been discussing here and yes there are plenty of times when it does in fact sound better !
 

RCHeliGuy

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ahhhh Bernard, you're getting good, kinda like Gordon, trying to bait me !!

remember ..........when you , Gordon, Mark , me, whomever says it sounds better it's our brains perception of what the ear has fed it it. Subject to all the bias we have been discussing here and yes there are plenty of times when it does in fact sound better !
Go for a run beforehand and it will sound better! Maybe a glass of good wine and it will sound better!
Good company with lively conversation and it sounds better too!

There are so many ways to increase your enjoyment while listening that will make the experience better :)

I can think of a couple more I haven't tried that would definitely improve the experience, but I won't post anything explicit :eek:
 

rpokuls

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I don't know if anybody else has had this issue, but I'm sort of a hypochondriac when it comes to my sound system. Sometimes it seems that my system doesn't "sound as good" as it did before. So I worry that maybe there is an issue with the equipement or that my hearing is going or whatever. Usually I can fix the problem by having a couple of glasses of wine. The things start sounding better.

My brother used to mess with me by saying things like "wow, your bass sounds really boomy and muffled. Your old system sounded better".

All that is to say, I don't think that I can "trust my ears".

Which is why God invented network analyzers.
 

Gordon Gray

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ahhhh Bernard, you're getting good, kinda like Gordon, trying to bait me !!

remember ..........when you , Gordon, Mark , me, whomever says it sounds better it's our brains perception of what the ear has fed it it. Subject to all the bias we have been discussing here and yes there are plenty of times when it does in fact sound better !
Yes Dave,

That's why I've returned all the components that I've previously listed that I really wanted to sound better and was initially biased to want to like. No baiting. Just restating fact based on my personal experiences.

You all can interpret my experiences in any manner you wish.

Gordon

PS: One potential explanation. I really like to lose money when auditioning a product. It makes me feel better because I was raised Catholic and like to be punished. :D
 
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Bernard

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ahhhh Bernard, you're getting good, kinda like Gordon, trying to bait me !!

remember ..........when you , Gordon, Mark , me, whomever says it sounds better it's our brains perception of what the ear has fed it it. Subject to all the bias we have been discussing here and yes there are plenty of times when it does in fact sound better !
Dave, this is beginning to sound like a philosophical discussion.

So, for those "plenty of times when when it does in fact sound better", how do you separate reality from fake news?

And, what do you think of Shakti Stones ? :devil:
 

Bernard

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I don't know if anybody else has had this issue, but I'm sort of a hypochondriac when it comes to my sound system. Sometimes it seems that my system doesn't "sound as good" as it did before. So I worry that maybe there is an issue with the equipement or that my hearing is going or whatever. Usually I can fix the problem by having a couple of glasses of wine. The things start sounding better.

My brother used to mess with me by saying things like "wow, your bass sounds really boomy and muffled. Your old system sounded better".

All that is to say, I don't think that I can "trust my ears".

Which is why God invented network analyzers.
Sometimes it's not hypochondria; you should regularly unplug cables and plug them back in, to remove oxidation on the connectors.

Wine always works because you are then listening to music rather than equipment.

I trust my ears completely....after all, I listen with my ears, not with network analyzers.
 

RCHeliGuy

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Now we will have a CABLE MAINTENANCE argument :p

Put some dielectric grease on your plugs if you are worried, then you never have to touch them again :)

I "hear" that cables can wear out too! Since they can "break in" it's obvious that they change under load and therefore must wear out over time.

Of course you better go through all of your outlets and reinsert all the ROMEX and tighten all the screws down every year for peak performance.

You can send all your pretty worn out cables to me, and I'll put them to good use in frames to display near my speakers. By osmosis I'm sure everything will sound better :)
 
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Pneumonic

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Now we will have a CABLE MAINTENANCE argument :p

Put some dielectric grease on your plugs if you are worried, then you never have to touch them again :)

I "hear" that cables can wear out too! Since they can "break in" it's obvious that they change under load and therefore must wear out over time.

Of course you better go through all of your outlets and reinsert all the ROMEX and tighten all the screws down every year for peak performance.
.... don't forget to cryogenically treat all that Romex as well. ;-)
 
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Pneumonic

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I wish I hadn't said anything. Hope I didn't anger the cable maintenance people out there.
Don't concern yourself about it. Most in here have broad shoulders and have been involved in this hobby long enough to not get our panties in a knot over it anymore. Any of the newbies might wonder but, at least they get both sides of the argument and can make up their own mind on the matter.
 

Brad225

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You people are just haters and anticableites.

Now I am going to have to put on my fuzzy slippers and robe, look at snowflakes and find a soft puppy to pet.

Next your going to tell me Santa doesn't exist.
 

rpokuls

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Don't concern yourself about it. Most in here have broad shoulders and have been involved in this hobby long enough to not get our panties in a knot over it anymore. Any of the newbies might wonder but, at least they get both sides of the argument and can make up their own mind on the matter.
I was just joking. :) but thanks anyway.
 

rpokuls

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BTW, I was watching a YouTube video put out by Martin Logan. In it Joe Vojko (ML's Chief Technologist) talks about the influence of various factors on sound reproduction quality and he weights them as follows:

Speakers - 60%
Room - 30%
Amplifier - 10%

He never mentioned cable maintenance.

Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj5t7kiTB-s
 

Pneumonic

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BTW, I was watching a YouTube video put out by Martin Logan. In it Joe Vojko (ML's Chief Technologist) talks about the influence of various factors on sound reproduction quality and he weights them as follows:

Speakers - 60%
Room - 30%
Amplifier - 10%

He never mentioned cable maintenance.

Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj5t7kiTB-s
Makes sense since speaker/room performance errors are measured in 10's of dB's whereas amps/digital sources typically measure in hundredths/thousandths of dB's.
 

twich54

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You people are just haters and anticableites.

Now I am going to have to put on my fuzzy slippers and robe, look at snowflakes and find a soft puppy to pet.

Next your going to tell me Santa doesn't exist.
LOL Brad, you think this crowd is bad, take a look at the inmates over @ Audioholics forum !
 

RCHeliGuy

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You people are just haters and anticableites.

Now I am going to have to put on my fuzzy slippers and robe, look at snowflakes and find a soft puppy to pet.

Next your going to tell me Santa doesn't exist.
It's off the main topic, but related to your post.
A friend of mine recently posted this.

Conversation with my 5-year-old -
J: Why does Santa not want to be seen?
Me: What?
J: Why does Santa not want us to see him when he's at our house?
Me: Well . . (stalling) . .. because he doesn't want you to see his magic.
J: But we get to see him when we tell him what we want before Christmas.
Me. (crap!) . . . um . . . he's not using his magic then. No flying reindeer, no toys. He probably arrived by airplane.
J: Hmph!
That went well.
 

RCHeliGuy

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.... don't forget to cryogenically treat all that Romex as well. ;-)
What?

You don't have a continuous liquid nitrogen bath for your home's power cables to make them into super conductors that effectively have ZERO resistance, ZERO capacitance, and ZERO Inductance?

The good news is that you can run SERIOUS amperage through them with no issues!

I imagine there will be a company marketing half million dollar super conductor speaker cables sometime soon, and a cooling system designed to keep your cables near absolute zero would require maintenance.

On a serious note, they might actually be able to create graphene cables that have super conductor properties, however I doubt I could hear the difference.
 
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