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Toe In?

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Joey_V

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How much of a toe in do you guys do with reference to your sweetspot? I read in the manual that the toe in should be so that if you shined a flashlight straight center, you get the reflection in the inner 1/3 of the panel. However, the way I have it, I have the reflection slight towards the middle inner half of the panel.

I think I'm going to toe the Vantage a little bit outwards.... maybe mine are just a wee bit too toed in?

What do you guys think?

How far in do you guys toe-in your MLs?
 

Reverb

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Joey_V said:
How much of a toe in do you guys do with reference to your sweetspot? I read in the manual that the toe in should be so that if you shined a flashlight straight center, you get the reflection in the inner 1/3 of the panel. However, the way I have it, I have the reflection slight towards the middle inner half of the panel.

I think I'm going to toe the Vantage a little bit outwards.... maybe mine are just a wee bit too toed in?

What do you guys think?

How far in do you guys toe-in your MLs?
I started by setting my ascents at no toe and playing some music for a wile and then slowly over a day or two moving the toe in till every thing seamed to fall together.

In my experience if you don’t toe them in enough, your sweet spot will be weak and somewhat unfocused. If you over toe them in your sweet spot will be smaller them it needs to be. Experiment with them and don’t be afraid to try moving them in and out, and back and forth.

A good place to start is two feet from the back wall, eight feet apart with a quarter toe in, then start moving them around from there and see what works and what doesn’t.

Hope this helps.
 

Joey_V

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Joe,

So, at what point is your final toe in? Like if you shine a light down center from your sweetspot, would you say that the reflection is at 1/3 the middle part or directly at the 1/2 mark of your Ascent's stator panel?

Others may also give me their experience with regards to ML toe-ins.
 

SugarMedia

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I have a clipped wall to the left of my listening position so one speaker is toed inwards 1" more towards my chair. Although the flashlight method gave me a really good starting point; I still had to make some final adjustments, albeit very small ones, but they did make some major differences.

In addition to the toe in, I also placed a 5mm travertine tile on each of the back two spikes so that they aim down a bit more. This also helped a great deal.

I honestly believe it's hard to find the perfect toe-in position until you have had them for a while and really listened to them. Then I think you can make final measured adjustments that are the best for your ears.
 

Joey_V

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The reason I brought up this question is that I noticed that if I lean forward about 1 foot, the soundstage expands considerably. Right now, they are pretty much toed in to face me directly when at the sweet spot. I will experiment having them a litle toed out with the help of the flashlight method per the manual's recommendation.

Maybe I have mine a little too toed in. :(
 

Reverb

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Joey_V said:
The reason I brought up this question is that I noticed that if I lean forward about 1 foot, the soundstage expands considerably.
How close do you sit to the back wall?

Try this.
Hang a thick blanket or towels on your back wall in line with your head.

If you sit too close to the back wall you may be hearing the sounds reflections or reverberations, dampening the wall acoustically could help you out.
 

Viking

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If I shine a light on my Summits I see a streak of light about 2 inches from the inside. The incredible thing is that the Summits manage this wide placement without a hitch, They make an incredible soundstage this way, with depth, width and pinpint placement. They have it all!!!!!!!!
 

roberto

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toe in or out if for the stage at the theater

Hola Joey V. Toeing them makes you to move your chair all over the theater, from the first rod (toe in) to the back rod (toe out). Do this: keep one position for at least two or three days of listening...try to record it in your memory where are the musicians when your are listening, how far are your from them while you listen...use small combos, not to many musicians, jazz or classical music is great for this...them move them only one inch in...you will feel that now you are seated more forward than before...if you toe them out, you will be feeling and listening that you are away of the stage. The great thing here is that always you have the right size of the instruments, no matter where you like it!!! Not too many speakers offers you this feature!!! Trust you ears, and be seated where ever you liked, happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

Jeff Zaret

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Joey,
The flashlight method is a good place to start like a few of us have stated. You need to take in consideration how far back you sit within the "equation" of sweet spot. The one other thing I did was to get a tape measure or ruler and measure from the "inside" edge of the panel to the back wall and then the outside" edge to the back wall. This will ensure that both speakers are the same and from that point you can notate the amount of change you "toe-in" or "toe-out" to find the sweet spot.

Jeff :cool:
 

Robin

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Toe-in / Toe-out...

Jeff Zaret said:
Joey,
The flashlight method is a good place to start like a few of us have stated. You need to take in consideration how far back you sit within the "equation" of sweet spot. The one other thing I did was to get a tape measure or ruler and measure from the "inside" edge of the panel to the back wall and then the outside" edge to the back wall. This will ensure that both speakers are the same and from that point you can notate the amount of change you "toe-in" or "toe-out" to find the sweet spot.

Jeff :cool:
Jeff,

I had not heard of your tape measure / ruler technique. I'll have to try that as well... ;)

Toe-in / toe-out, I found very interesting with my Ascent i's, being that the electrostatic pannels are di-pole speakers, which as you know, just as much upper register sounds come out the back of the pannels as comes out of the front. So the surface behind the ML pannels - reflective or not has a major impact on the sound wave dynamics in the room. IMHO, ML's di-pole ability is definiately something to take in account, with toe-in or toe-out. "Trust your ears" is excellent advice during ML speaker placement.
 

Viking

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Roberto: With my Summits and my friends`CLS and ReQuest I don`t agree that toeing the MLs out neccessarily means moving the soundfield backwards, I experience this means moving the voice forwards into the room. :)
 

Jeff Zaret

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Robin,
The tape measure worked great fro me and I have a reference in case I move the speakers for cleaning or what ever. The CLS I think are probably more difficult to "dial-in" and may have a smaller sweet spot but once you get it set it is like a very large pair of headphones.

Jeff :cool:
 

roberto

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Viking said:
Roberto: With my Summits and my friends`CLS and ReQuest I don`t agree that toeing the MLs out neccessarily means moving the soundfield backwards, I experience this means moving the voice forwards into the room. :)
Gee...I don't know what to say you here...do this...toe them really out...this means to have them as toe in angle in an opossite direction...very toe out...and what happens is that the musicians are really far away of your seat...this is my experience with all ML, not only your Summits, Request and CLS. This is the benefit of the dipolar panel. The good thing here is that with ML we can get an outstanding image and scenario. No matter where you put them, you always have great sound. Your sweet spot is where you like them. Trust your ears...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

SugarMedia

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Jeff Zaret said:
The tape measure worked great fro me
I would definetly use the tape mesaure method for accuracy. I did this about 4 months ago and was suprised at how uneven my speakers were from the back wall. Prior to this I was judging by eye with the wood floor lines.

So yes, what a difference this made.
 
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staticfanatic

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RE: Toe in/out

Another thing to remember when positioning speakers, as you toe-in, you gain a slightly warmer, more midrange sound. When you toe- them out (the 1/3 rule), the speakers become brighter. This is what i have experienced with my Ascents anyway. I am still experimenting with placement and am going to try the flashlight technique. Also, how far should they be from the sidewall? Currently, they are 39" from the side and 86" apart, and 57" from the front wall (measured form the center of the stator). Any suggestions is appreciated. I am also 11' from the back wall, which is unfortunatley open to the kitchen area. :)
 

tonyc

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Since I am a S P A C E freak I hardly toe my Aeons in at all. Neither are my rear Scenarios toed in.
 

Joey_V

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jmschnur said:
any thoughts on how to use the flash light tweak for a cinima i?

Joel
Never heard this one yet....

I suppose you dont really need a flashlight tweak since the cinema is a center speaker... just point it to your ears at listening position.
 

Reverb

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Joey_V said:
Never heard this one yet....

I suppose you dont really need a flashlight tweak since the cinema is a center speaker... just point it to your ears at listening position.
I guess I should post my laser pen tweak for center channels. :rolleyes:
 

Robin

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Laser Pen Technique...

Zip3kx07 said:
I guess I should post my laser pen tweak for center channels. :rolleyes:
Joe,

I think your laser pen technique sounds cool, you should post it. Although, I think it might drive my kitty cat crazy, as she likes chasing the - red dot laser light, around the room... :p :D :D
 
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