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This article seems to be getting attention on numerous other sites ......

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6236

Just wondering what the consensus here is .........

You are poking the bear here and know exactly what is going to happen. Do you really want to start this all over again with a thread that goes completely out of control? We all have our opinions, this guy claims to use science to substantiate his findings - great. I prefer my ears to sales hype or his so called science. Some have negative opinions without trying cables in their own listening room, some actually try then decide and others just totally ignore yet because of articles like this have a negative opinion. This same thing happened at Axpona a couple of years ago with a different so called expert and got real ugly.
 
This article seems to be getting attention on numerous other sites ......

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6236

Just wondering what the consensus here is .........

This is great dave.

This does strike me as to the debates we have here a bit. So - I get what the author is saying - but if he did 'sneak' recording equipment in- seems as if he had a prior agenda. Was their proof the guy bumped the volume? Or was he saying that because of his known truths? To me - he should have asked if they minded if he recorded it. Not because he needed to but for the same reason he didn't name people to begin with. Out of respect. Thx
 
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Agreed, the bear has been poked repeatedly. There is absolutely no consensus, just two sides who will likely never agree or find consensus.
 
U r the bear mark!! Lol.

We we're all bears either a teddy bear or grizzly bear.

Since I was never upset or expecting an apology, and yet appeared to hurt the feelings of others maybe grizzly bear would apply to me.

Others who felt offended might be teddy bears :)

When you have two sides who consider the other side ignorant of something each side knows to be the gospel truth, you have reached an impasse.
 
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You are poking the bear here and know exactly what is going to happen.

Exactly ? not quite but if you think so .......

Do you really want to start this all over again with a thread that goes completely out of control?

I have the ability to keep this thread in check ;)


When you have two sides who consider the other side ignorant of something each side knows to be the gospel truth, you have reached an impasse.

while true, I tend to side with those that have proven science on their side.
 
while true, I tend to side with those that have proven science on their side.

Unfortunately, there is a growing belief that what you feel is truth must be the truth and that no science is settled if it disagrees with your viewpoint.

When news networks decided to give both "sides" of an argument a voice even if one was factually correct and the other was only an opposing belief, it legitimized this whole idea.


Somewhat related to your post, Ethan Winer recently posted this on FB.

I just posted this on the Pro Sound News page:

I was extremely disappointed to read Rob Tavaglione's review of Accusound cables in the July 2018 PSN. This is a perfect example of someone who has no real knowledge of how audio works, and doesn't even understand the limitations of his own hearing. A review like this is more appropriate for hi-fi magazines aimed at wealthy but clueless audiophiles, rather than a magazine for recording professionals who deserve better than this bullshit.

If a normal length of wire affects the sound audibly, then the wire is defective or the person doing the comparing is incompetent. I'm sorry but there's no nicer way to say it. There is nothing a wire can do to affect imaging. And if a wire really did affect bass fullness as claimed in this review, that would show in a basic test of frequency response. Reviews like this that present magic as fact just dumb down our field, and cause people to waste money on overpriced nonsense products instead of focusing on what really matters.​
 
Yeah there can be so much passion on these discussions. I can only attest for the trade shows I've been to AND more importantly in my home and other homes.

Cables do make a big difference. Some connections more than others. BUT I wish it weren't so :) I would have more $$ in my account.

My wonderful system of Martin Logan CLX's and 212 subs, and McIntosh gear have ALL made a big sonic jump by inserting superior cables. Not a volume increase but a resolution increase as well as cleaner and quieter backgrounds.

I was a doubter. No more.

No graph needed.
 
Not a volume increase but a resolution increase as well as cleaner and quieter backgrounds.

Firstly:

If the background is quieter, that should be so easy to test without any signal playing through the turned on system. You shouldn't even need an SPL meter, but by all means - please do.

Post how much quieter your background is. I'm intrigued.

I really am intrigued.

To then go on:

IF your super expensive cables really do result in a "quieter background" then what is happening is that the expensive (transparent??) cable is actually attenuating low-level signals produced by upstream components.

This is because a cable makes no background on its own - it is only transmitting what is produced by the active components in your system.

Probably not the design intention of a "good" cable, and probably not what you want in your system.

Just sayin'
 
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Who said I had "super expensive" cables? Hmm trying to flame away?

Just sayin' :ROFL:

BTW, I see you have an Shunyata Power Conditioner. What benefit is this? :) And the audio quest cables? Why not Wal Mart interconnects?

This topic just brings out some unfortunate things and some hypocrisy.

:)
 
Who said I had "super expensive" cables? Hmm trying to flame away?

Just sayin' :ROFL:

BTW, I see you have an Shunyata Power Conditioner. What benefit is this? :) And the audio quest cables? Why not Wal Mart interconnects?

This topic just brings out some unfortunate things and some hypocrisy.

:)

No hypocrisy on my part. Please understand fact before you throw accusatory name-calling terms at me.

Regardless.......the article referenced in this thread relates to power cables! I hope that is what you are talking about.

We're not talking about power conditioners.

We're not talking about analogue interconnects.

A power conditioner conditions power. It actually does something - least not protect the equipment.

Analogue cables can (and do) make a difference. They are carrying a signal.

One of the benefits of analogue cables IS NOT to make the system quieter. How can they do this?

Power cables and data [USB, ethernet, etc] cables can not make a difference.

My system does run basic power cables - extracted from computers, etc.

BUT - we're getting way off track here.........

We're talking about power cables. You said they make your system quieter......<>.....no measurements necessary.

How much quieter is your system? For crying out loud - please tell us.

Post your results if you don't mind.
 
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Yup here we go a thread that is slowly going out of control. As far as I’m concerned cables should be a banned subject. Absolutely nothing good comes out of discussing this subject which the topic author knew exactly would be the case. I thought this forum was to share experiences or service related subjects that help others make a decision. This subject is way to toxic for any useful information to be used by anyone. Instead of an uninformed person like I was a few years ago looking for help on this subject you find out quickly you are on your own - this forum will not aid you in the least in your decision about cables. To a certain degree this bleeds into grounding, vibration control and power conditioning which although a little more accepted can be also dragged through the audio mud with hardened opinions about cables.

Audio for me is my get away from stressful things at work and what I see on TV. Forums are a place to expand your understanding and grow in this hobby. Topics like this just want me to stop participating here. Please let’s keep this forum positive!
 
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This is great dave.

This does strike me as to the debates we have here a bit. So - I get what the author is saying - but if he did 'sneak' recording equipment in- seems as if he had a prior agenda. Was their proof the guy bumped the volume? Or was he saying that because of his known truths? To me - he should have asked if they minded if he recorded it. Not because he needed to but for the same reason he didn't name people to begin with. Out of respect. Thx

Point taken timm, as for the 'sneaking' in of his test equipment, I don't have a problem with that for if the manufacturer is given a 'heads up' then all bets are off. What I don't get is this Bob Levi (prez of the audio society) character, he comes off as the 'tool' of the manufacturer's !

GW, again, as for your comment about the preconceived direction that you feel I intended this thread to go I'm hoping we can keep it focused to the article at hand, if not, I'll edit and or close it, understood ?
 
Point taken timm, as for the 'sneaking' in of his test equipment, I don't have a problem with that for if the manufacturer is given a 'heads up' then all bets are off. What I don't get is this Bob Levi (prez of the audio society) character, he comes off as the 'tool' of the manufacturer's !

That's a tough call.

The question becomes one of motivations with respect to the "tester" and the president.

From what I've seen presidents of "societies" will tend to cater to the industry they are in. They tend to be elected based on popularity and are bottom line focused. There are so many magazines in many markets that are completely worthless in terms of their willingness to say anything other than positive things about any advertiser.

I've seen this with regard to Ski boats years ago after Water Ski magazine got complaints from its advertisers after their ratings reviews. They had standardized testing, but ended up moving to publishing what was essentially advertising text from the manufacturers. I've seen this with a number of short lived RC Helicopter publications, and a few others.

It is very rare that a magazine bucks this. Car and Driver historically has been willing to tear a product apart and list very specific objective and subject thoughts, but I've not seen this very often.

The problem I see with the business of selling audio gear is that it is becoming commoditized.

1. Media source is digital and high resolution files are available that exceed the capabilities of all other media.
So CD/DVD/BD player sales are WAY down. Everyone streams or plays local files, hence OPPO stopping production.
Not only that but the content is centrally distributed by Internet removing all local profit for source.
Result: media/transport has been commoditized = nil profit

2. D/A converters/preamps have been on a Moore's Law curve becoming dramatically more powerful quickly and reaching diminishing returns.
Result: very low profit, very small market the ultra high end.

3. Amplifiers are becoming commoditized, but still have some room for profit at the very high end.
I've mentioned before that I have a $300 AV receiver powering my surround sound system and doing a very good job of it. It's not perfect, but it is past the point where I care.

4. Speakers are the last component where profit is possible at the high end.

Since all the profit is left at the ultra high end and companies are struggling harder to find anything to sell that adds value, they are increasingly grasping at straws.

BTW Audio is by no means the only sinking ship out there, and like others it is being squeezed from many directions simultaneously.

  • Technology creating much higher quality much cheaper
  • Society moving towards ear buds and away from stereo systems
  • A middle class that can afford nice things that is withering away
 
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You are poking the bear here and know exactly what is going to happen. Do you really want to start this all over again with a thread that goes completely out of control?

Apparently Dave does. Nuff said.
 
Maybe he just wanted to liven up the forum?

As a case and point about prices going down and content going up:

This $38.83 USB driven and powered DAC/preamp is currently driving my self powered monitor speakers in my office.
It has a nice smooth volume knob and seems to work well. The hardware is much more solid, it has more features, and costs less than half as much as what I just replaced.
How much profit do you think there is in a device like this?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009WN7QT4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


All I'm saying is that bang for the buck continues to drive prices down and features up making it so that the average person never bothers to look at higher end equipment shrinking the market and leaving anyone in that market appreciating ANY source of revenue such they they wouldn't speak up about the merits of any product that is producing a profit.
 
That's a tough call.

The question becomes one of motivations with respect to the "tester" and the president.

From what I've seen presidents of "societies" will tend to cater to the industry they are in. They tend to be elected based on popularity and are bottom line focused. There are so many magazines in many markets that are completely worthless in terms of their willingness to say anything other than positive things about any advertiser.

I've seen this with regard to Ski boats years ago after Water Ski magazine got complaints from its advertisers after their ratings reviews. They had standardized testing, but ended up moving to publishing what was essentially advertising text from the manufacturers. I've seen this with a number of short lived RC Helicopter publications, and a few others.

It is very rare that a magazine bucks this. Car and Driver historically has been willing to tear a product apart and list very specific objective and subject thoughts, but I've not seen this very often.

The problem I see with the business of selling audio gear is that it is becoming commoditized.

1. Media source is digital and high resolution files are available that exceed the capabilities of all other media.
So CD/DVD/BD player sales are WAY down. Everyone streams or plays local files, hence OPPO stopping production.
Not only that but the content is centrally distributed by Internet removing all local profit for source.
Result: media/transport has been commoditized = nil profit

2. D/A converters/preamps have been on a Moore's Law curve becoming dramatically more powerful quickly and reaching diminishing returns.
Result: very low profit, very small market the ultra high end.

3. Amplifiers are becoming commoditized, but still have some room for profit at the very high end.
I've mentioned before that I have a $300 AV receiver powering my surround sound system and doing a very good job of it. It's not perfect, but it is past the point where I care.

4. Speakers are the last component where profit is possible at the high end.

Since all the profit is left at the ultra high end and companies are struggling harder to find anything to sell that adds value, they are increasingly grasping at straws.

BTW Audio is by no means the only sinking ship out there, and like others it is being squeezed from many directions simultaneously.

  • Technology creating much higher quality much cheaper
  • Society moving towards ear buds and away from stereo systems
  • A middle class that can afford nice things that is withering away

Speakers and profit margin, for sure. But in the past decade cabling has easily rivaled speakers.
 
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