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Robert D

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The gramophone used to be state of the art in audio reproduction in 1880s. The CD player became the latest tech in the 1980s, one hundred years later.
The companies that made gramophones have not exist for a long time and the companies that make CD players will also cease to exist at some stage.
Not sure how long the high end audio industry can sustain if there is not a sufficiently large population of people in their 20s-30s who do not walk around but actually sit down when listening to music. The younger people who do sit down listening to music seriously these days do not buy Martin Logan electrostatics speakers although some of them may buy a paid of HiFiMan electrostatic headphones. It seems that Kevin is addressing a market segment of golden oldies like me who are now living their teenage dreams!
One thing that will help preserve great audio equipment is the home theater. Young people really appreciate a good home theater, and I think more homes in the future may have them. People don't go out to the movies like they used to. Nothing but a home theater allows a family to enjoy the same movie together with great sound and picture.

It could be in the future people use VR and a good set of headphones to simulate a home theater. I have a really cool program on my PC that simulates in VR a movie theater. The screen is giant, like a real movie theater and there are at least 50 seats or more for people to sit. You can put on a movie and others join you in the audience. You are able to see the people and talk to them. Maybe that will be a big thing, especially for those that don't have the space and $$ for a proper home theater. It is impressive.

I do think home theaters will help the audiophile business remain strong enough to survive.
 

BigGuy

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So why do multiple subs sound better? Is it because the sound is more dispersed, spread around the room? Perhaps also it spreads the bass load between multiple subs, so as to reduce the demand on the subs? Reduced load adds more accuracy and faster response?

The overall volume of the bass should be the same, right? When you tune the system you wouldn't want the bass to be over powering.
Food for thought...



MORE in depth ;-)

 

Robert D

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Food for thought...



MORE in depth ;-)

Pretty convincing. I didnt realize the facts about the stereo bass frequencies. I should indeed get a 2nd sub. Another BF 210 would be good.
 

Paul172

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I thought I was in audio heaven with the CLX’s and dual JL Audio F113’s then I borrowed a pair of now discontinued Rel No. 25’s and every I knew has changed and gone well beyond what I was listening to! The speed and accuracy of the Rel subs match the CLX panels perfectly! I need to hear four more subs the line array subwoofers must make the ultimate CLX experience!!!!
 

Big Dog RJ

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That's great to hear that everyone is really enjoying their CLX's matched with subs to their liking. Afterall, enjoy what you're most happy with!

I was in the previous camp, where I didn't use subs at all for nearly 15 years. Our previous place was way too small for subs, even the bass drivers in the Ethos or Montis hybrids would cause our little apartment to shake! It was like being out at sea with a low level rumble that wasn't defined at all. When I had just got the CLX's then, it's bass panels were quite adequate in our little shoebox, so I didnt bother with subs. Fwd another 3 yrs since, and now, at our new place, this open plan space does require LF augmentation. The long hallway located towards the far right channel, acts like a wind tunnel, so pretty much all LF's tend to get sucked down this tunnel.

Although full range stats and other panel type speakers don't falter too much with side wall interaction, floors or ceilings, having a bit of side wall is still better than no side wall. So, I've managed to create a side wall just before the hall way starts, and this helps! Obviously the back wall / front wall is just as important for that dipole effect and the 10 millisecond delay... both crucial elements for dipole dispersion, as you all know. Finally locating the sub between the two stats dead centre, proved to be perfect in this particular room.

As I said before, if it was a much larger area then I would have considered two subs but this one is mighty fine! Plus the wifey is happy as... at least the system hasn't encroached the rest of the living space! Afterall, we must learn to share the space and appreciate what we can do with it, not make the audio system the centre of focus, although that has nearly been the case. So I'm not going to add anymore subs here.

Believe me, I've been to certain places where the audio system has taken over the entire living space, like an alien attack! The significant other basically has no say! I find this sort of arrangement very selfish and self centred. In which case, a dedicated room could have been established where that person can hibernate.

I know of this other case where the chap seemed to love the audio more than the Mrs... would spend exorbitant amounts on just about anything hifi related, even though it wasn't necessary. Constantly upgrading... to the point where their household debt went through the roof. One fine sunny afternoon, whiles he was away, she took a very large kitchen knife and cut deep into each of the Focal drivers. Then heavily damaged the cabinets and stomped all over the very highend tube preamp to pieces. Basically she didn't feel appreciated... and she walked out! That's all she wrote! Now this chap sits sadly in a one room apartment, with all his broken audio gear in storage. Some of it works and most of it doesn't. What a sad ending...

Obviously if you were single and had no other person/s to care for, then go nuts! As for me, I have other priorities and not just highend audio, although music is an important part of my life, yes.

At this stage, what I've put together, and having to start from scratch twice, since 2004, is damn good enough for me!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
 

GW1800

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RJ what a sad story!!! I’m fortunate to have an understanding wife but more importantly a very separate room that we can enjoy together or alone. Also having a basement is huge!! Many audiophile’s need to work with a single level and share an existing room. I did early on so know the limitations well.

My room has space for two subs which brings a lot of smiles to my face. I think LF bass is so important - small in actual frequency range but impactful nonetheless. I really have not listened much to my pair without the subs I know many do particularly if space is an issue. ML speakers in general are not all that room friendly as they need to be out from the front wall plenty if not can cause poor performance or to take up room space that may rub the wife the wrong way but sound much better. Front wall room treatments help but then not all in a family may like the look.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Pretty convincing. I didnt realize the facts about the stereo bass frequencies. I should indeed get a 2nd sub. Another BF 210 would be good.
The BF series subs already have dual drivers, dual force- trade marked by ML. This to me is a perfect source for clean, high definition LF, that is fast, crystal clear, good real life impact and is easy to install. Having a second one or third one or more... might be better but that also depends on your room and listening habits. I wouldn't just divulge in addition items like this just because someone said so...

Your ears and your finances are the ultimate judge. As long as you're happy, that's about it!
Cheers, RJ
 

Robert D

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The BF series subs already have dual drivers, dual force- trade marked by ML. This to me is a perfect source for clean, high definition LF, that is fast, crystal clear, good real life impact and is easy to install. Having a second one or third one or more... might be better but that also depends on your room and listening habits. I wouldn't just divulge in addition items like this just because someone said so...

Your ears and your finances are the ultimate judge. As long as you're happy, that's about it!
Cheers, RJ
I'm happy with what I have now, but I can imagine 2 will be better. One on either side, one with each Prodigy. The room is 20x20 and open to the kitchen which is bigger than that. So plenty of room. Since I'm happy enough with my present setup, I'm not going to get another just yet. Prices are so high now. I'm trying to not make any big unnecessary purchases now during this high inflation. In the future, maybe after the recession really kicks in, I'll get one when inflation goes down. Certainly not a necessity!
 

Big Dog RJ

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Yes, that's a fair analysis Rob D.

Speaking of prices, perhaps Shawn (Davinci Media) can assist... just a thought.
Lucky my ML dealer did a real nice deal that included a brand new Mojo Voodoo power cord and a set of brand new Nordost Heimdall 2 interconnects! He's always willing to help, great chap.

I've already got Nordost Heimdall 2 as full power loom with Tyr2 speaker cables, and Voodoo mojo on the QX4 units, so this really helped to keep the cable consistency.

I've also noticed that now around 50hrs is nearing, and I'm starting to lower settings by 1 more notch... things are nicely settling in the sub LF's, as ML recommends.

The open plan space that you have sounds very similar to mine. So I guess as you mentioned in the near future, adding a second one would be prerty nice. Was just wondering, you mentioned Prodigy's... don't they have adequate bass energy as they are? Those are pretty big dynamic drivers in there... can't remember is it one or two bass drivers though.

The only thing in our open plan is I've brought the CLX's well into the listening area. Well away from the front wall, around 6.5ft. So it's virtually encroached about 1/4 of our living space, which is not too bad considering. However, placing in a second BF sub will really take the cake! I need to respect the Mrs... afterall, she loves those fine tunes!

Cheers, RJ
 

Robert D

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Yes, that's a fair analysis Rob D.

Speaking of prices, perhaps Shawn (Davinci Media) can assist... just a thought.
Lucky my ML dealer did a real nice deal that included a brand new Mojo Voodoo power cord and a set of brand new Nordost Heimdall 2 interconnects! He's always willing to help, great chap.

I've already got Nordost Heimdall 2 as full power loom with Tyr2 speaker cables, and Voodoo mojo on the QX4 units, so this really helped to keep the cable consistency.

I've also noticed that now around 50hrs is nearing, and I'm starting to lower settings by 1 more notch... things are nicely settling in the sub LF's, as ML recommends.

The open plan space that you have sounds very similar to mine. So I guess as you mentioned in the near future, adding a second one would be prerty nice. Was just wondering, you mentioned Prodigy's... don't they have adequate bass energy as they are? Those are pretty big dynamic drivers in there... can't remember is it one or two bass drivers though.

The only thing in our open plan is I've brought the CLX's well into the listening area. Well away from the front wall, around 6.5ft. So it's virtually encroached about 1/4 of our living space, which is not too bad considering. However, placing in a second BF sub will really take the cake! I need to respect the Mrs... afterall, she loves those fine tunes!

Cheers, RJ
Yes, there are two big woofers on each speaker. Adding the sub really enhances the sound a lot! I cut off the Prodigies at 60 Hz and the sound is SO much better. When I ran Audyssey it cut them off at 40 Hz. Upping it to 60 Hz made the bass sound better. I like using Pink Floyd's The Wall to test, and other drum heavy songs like some of Phil Collins. Tight and accurate. I think taking the really low frequency load off of the Prodigy woofers helps them to do better on mid bass.

I use my room for home theater as well as music, so my Prodigies are closer to the front wall. They are only about 2 or 3 feet out. Can't have them too far out from the screen. To me it all sounds good. Audyssey seems to make music sound slightly better.

Another plan of mine, now a long term, is to build a new home with a dedicated home theater in the basement. I could even dedicate a separate room for just music, but not sure I'd do that. I already have a separate room for pc gaming and another for VR pc gaming. I refuse to build now though with how high the cost of building is. Can't bring myself to do it. So I'm going to wait longer for the Fed to raise our interest rates even more and then that will bring down inflation and maybe even kick in a deep recession. That'll bring prices back to earth. We built this home in 08 during that recession, so I'd like to do that again.

In that dedicated theater I will most probably get 2 subs.
 

Robert D

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Run again the PBK once the sub is broken in. I had a noticeable improvement. Less vibration of the walls was one.

My old depth i used to really vibrate the walks bad. I think PBK helps with that.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Yes, definitely looks like I would need to run through the whole sequence again, as a final adjustment because this thing is going extremely smoothly. I don't think there's much wall interaction... the closest side walls are about 7ft away & front wall from sub is about 6ft as well, in line with the CLX's. Absolutely no overhang, no blurring, no smearing as if the subs really not there!

I just listened for another 4hrs straight, ending with two albums from Charlie Hayden & John Taylor- Night Fall on Naim label. The other one Charlie Hayden and Pat Metheney- Into The Missouri Sky, both were superb! The CLX's are really capable of some astonishing bass on its own. The sub hardly kicked in on these two albums, and they have plenty of LF detail. It's only those very low notes where the CLX's require bit of help. Even on these lowest registers, the subs kicks in only when required, so it's never lingering and smearing things in the background.

That's an important aspect of bass to panel integration. The stats are doing most of the work on their own, thanks to the CJ Class A amplifiers. The sub helps a further edge on those lower registers, where it delivers with great speed and then leaves it, rather than strangles it... Hope I made some sense here for those wondering if the integration is still an issue, as was the case when I tried out different types of subs.

This is really top notch stuff, now that the low notes are starting to really open up with a greater sense of speed and agility, it's a marvellous thing!

Cheers to the ML's BF series!
Woof! RJ
 

Robert D

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It's pretty cool how at times I swear the sub isn't on, and I'm worried it's broken. I get up and check it. The green light is on and I take off the grill to see the woofer. Its banging away. They really integrate well. Much better than my depth i.
 
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