The biggest change to reduce brightness: Tube preamp or cd player

[MiTT]

Jim, You last post phrased it as 'digital glare', a different animal possibly than what you mentioned in your first post perhaps ?? If so is it apparent on all your CD's ?? Or is it the upper freq range regardless ??

As far as your tube pre-amp question, I'm the ABC preacher around here,
ARC, BAT, Cary, CJ. Your price range will afford you a very nice piece !

I agree with everything Dave says above. I'd also add an S to the ABC mantra. You can find some very good Sonic Frontier pre-amps in the price range you are mentioning that are true classics. I recently saw an SFL-2 on the Gon for right around $2200.00 - it was nearly a $6000.00 pre-amp when it was introduced I believe. Anthem still services all of the Sonic Frontiers gear, so no worries there. I'm a BAT guy myself, but ARC, Cary, CJ and Audible Illusions all make great gear in your range.

 

[Craig]

Above are all good suggestions but I wouldn't give up on acoustic treatments. They can have a significant impact on the overall sound and are usually cost effective and effects are accumulative. You just have to be subtle if not sneaky.

For example, buy your girlfriend some thick carpet or a thick throw-rug, or how about a cushy sofa and love seat (makes a good bass trap), add some silk trees to place behind the speakers and more silk or real plants around the room, place some thick pillows in strategic locations such as in the corners or near the walls, hang some large paintings on the wall and fill the back of the frame with rigid insulation material (but do not add pictures with glass fronts).

Bottomline: Decorate with room acoustics in mind.

 

[karma]

HI Jim,
I'll not comment on your alternatives. Other's here can do that better. I also do not want to start a flame war. Hear that guys? No flame. This is just one man's opinion.

You want honest opinions, right? My view is, based upon experience, Rotel products and ML electrostatics are like mixing oil and water. While I acknowledge that Rotel offers a lot for the money, they sound terrible on stats, IMHO.

Every Rotel product I have heard produces intolerable grain that stats reproduce with glorious accuracy. I can't stand to listen to them.

My only advice is to go with tubes all the way. I do not like mixing and matching SS and Tube technologies. I've never had success doing this. I prefer ARC amplification but there are other good alternatives.

Sparky

 

[kirkawall]

Hi,

Just a few thoughts -- I agree with some posters here that a full-on Rotel system might not, in your room, be the ideal match for your Vantages, which while not bright are very high-resolution speakers and seem to be particularly sensitive to even borderline brightness in upstream components. I switch in my own system between a McIntosh MC275 (now only on long-term loan, alas!) and a tube preamp (Synthesis Harmony) and Quad amp combination. And I have to say, for me the tube pre/SS amp gives the best of both worlds, sweetness, that mid-range magic, and the real power and control on the bottom end that I think is a bit harder to find in affordable tube amps -- though I am not an expert. But there is one more thing you might try and it should cost you about 60.00. I love my preamp but it has HUGE amounts of gain and to make the volume control usuable I've had to insert a set of Rothwell attenuators into the chain. These make things quieter all round and are nearly totally transparent but they DO seem to remove that last tiny bit of digital glare. YMMV, but they're fairly cheap to try and they smooth things out for you without fundamentally changing your system's sound. Anyway, good luck with your efforts and best,

k

 

[Pcar928fan]

Does anybody know if my Rotel 1080 amplifier could also be the culprit of this digital glare? Does anybody know the characteristics on this amplifier?
Jim

Could be...my 1090 (the big brother of your 1080) is PRETTY BRIGHT...I might use the word glare for it... Source does matter too and it might be the source material. The place I noticed it most and actually winced was the scene in the House of Flying Daggers where they are playing the echo game and in particular at the end when he takes the whole bowl of beans and slings them out. That nearly hurt my ears it was so bright!

 

[Pcar928fan]

My view is, based upon experience, Rotel products and ML electrostatics are like mixing oil and water. While I acknowledge that Rotel offers a lot for the money, they sound terrible on stats, IMHO.

Every Rotel product I have heard produces intolerable grain that stats reproduce with glorious accuracy. I can't stand to listen to them.

Sparky,

You should come listen to my all Rotel and Prodigy set up... Not bad but a bit bright depending on the material chosen. A BIG part of that for me is my room. All tile floors, no carpet. Certainly there are better choices or at least different choices, not sure how well you would do for the money, but my Rotel set up sounds pretty good I think. You can ask Scott he listened to it a few weeks back...

 

[Gordon Gray]

Not into snake oil

I also am of the position that what you need to correct is the room placement, treatments or perform some EQ on your system.
This notion that fundamental acoustics problems can be corrected through cables or amp topologies is a reflection of the snake-oil salesmanship of some of the vendors (and indirectly, the magazines their ads support). It needs some serious debunking.

Not saying a tube amp is bad, but that it can not correct your fundamental problem. It might change the perception of the effect but introducing frequency shaping (typically rolled off highs and additional harmonic components that some find pleasing). But it probably is not the first thing to try.

If anyone want to invest $2,500 to totally transform their system in a way no other gear (short of a better ML speaker, of course ) could, it would be to add an Audyssey MultEQ Pro to your rig. Guaranteed to make more of a difference than $10K worth of amps , CD players, or cables any day of the week.
Another great investment is room treatments if your room is dedicated or semi-dedicated.

Once you get room acoustics sorted, then you play with the bling of tubes or cables. You might even be able to appreciate the subtle differences better if the room’s devoid of nasty resonances.

Jonathon,

With all due respect and from my personal experience, I find your summary judgement of what cables and other changes can do and how they impact the overall sonic signature of a system to be somewhat misinformed. I certainly concur that having a room that does not induce deleterious resonances is a key aspect of experiencing good sound. However, I also believe that keeping the signal path (ie: hardware) as simple as possible is also very important. Less stuff to corrupt the signal. I have done numerous things to my systems over the years that are quite inexpensive, relatively speaking, which have made significant / positive impacts on the overall music listening experience.

It may well be true that Rotel gear and ML's don't have that magic synergy. Can't say because I haven't heard that particular combination. One of many examples, in my personal experience, was installing a APC Power Wedge power conditioner in the system. Noise floor, including digital glaze, dropped a subjective 30 to 40%. Putting RFI couplers on your interconnects will subjectively lower the glaze to a great degree, but does more damage than good regarding overall detail retrieval and listening satisfaction. When I recently went through and installed Mapleshade cones, interconnects, power cables, and Pierre's power strip to the system, the proverbial blankets came flying off the speakers and the music was much cleaner and much more engaging.

My original point, that I may not have been clear on, is that these changes do impact the sonic signature, some better / some worse / some significant / some not. When I recently auditioned a VTL ST150 tube amp in my system, I found it somewhat compelling at times but too smooth at other times. Did it take out some glaze, you bet. Was it ultimately a better amp for my system, within the context of my personal listening bias, nope.

Bottom line is that you need to address an audio system holistically. The whole (what you hear) is a summation of the parts (all things "upstream" from the actual speakers). If you accept that principle, then, as I said in my previous post, one should proceed with caution recognizing that one piece of "whatever" (hardware, wire, room treatment, speaker position, etc.) is only one spoke in the wheel to obtaining good sound from your system. Good thread folks. Comments appreciated.

GG

 

[jjay]

Thank you all for your help. I already bought new soft leather sofa and chair and the listening area is carpeted. Installing insullation on the front wall will never get my girlfriends approval. Do any of you have more thoughts on my Rotel 1072 cd player or the Rotel RB1080 amplifier? Be criticial, it won't hurt my feelings. I am look to improve my system so any ideas are welcome. Also I thought that the Anthem TLP-1 was the weaker link in my audio chain. Any thoughts on this preamplifier? I will send pictures of my system soon.
Jim

 

[twich54]

Jim, I still own and use a 1072 player in a second systemI ahve in my Living room, small system having the 1072 run through a Jolida 302B integrated amp dring a pair of Totem Arro speakers and I love it !!! I still believe at it's price point it is top notch and it performs well beyond, IMO !!

FWIW, I doubt very much if it's your problem for I was using mine with my Vantages and experienced none of the issues you have brought up

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Jim,

Try a tube preamp first. Then try a different amp if you want. I still think the biggest bang for your buck, if you are inclined, is the preamp. All the other suggestions help tame the room but if you are hearing is directly from the source then it is time to attempt to change some of the source or peripheral - stuff to see what you like the best,

Jeff

 

[edwinr]

I would attack the room acoustics first. While some Rotel gear tends towards the lean side of things, I don't think a Rotel amplifier would be the sole cause of that 'glare' you are describing. The Rotel CD player is quite good at the budget end of the market but I do know from personal experience this component CAN sound a little bright in some systems.

In saying that, Vantages are capable of highlighting the differences between budget hi-fi and better quality components. As soon as you are able - after attending to room acoustics, I would start thinking about upgrades. Consider the CD player first, then the pre amp and finish off with the power amp.

There's a fine line between glare/brightness and resolution. The Vantage and the Summit are capable of walking this fine line if given the chance.

 

[kirkawall]

Hi,

One thing -- I'm not sure if it's been mentioned here. If you are thinking of going with a tube pre/SS power it helps to make sure they're a reasonable match in terms of impedance since tube pres often have a realtively high output impedance while many SS amps have a lowish input impedance. Anyway, just a thought.

best,

k

 

[cyclone]

Try different cables and interconnects first, Cardas Golden Cross or Golden Reference would good alternatives.