System no. 442 ( CLS, Motion 15, ELS 9 )

[Robert D]

ML center ELS have folded Motion tweeter to allow tweeter to synergistically interact with electrostatic panel. Goal to enhance or improve sound.

Think of center channel loudspeaker like specialized equipment to forcefully reproduce dialogue and whatever else is covered by speaker frequency range.

Active bass driver and related Anthem room correction are used in subwoofer. Subwoofer specializes in recreating low frequency sound.

If center channel and subwoofer speaker are merged into one chassis then each no longer remain specialized hardware. To keep separate is comparatively possibly same or less expensive way to build to achieve perhaps same or better performance result and is required since home theatre equipment has separate channel for each. Lastly if from both specialized equipment desire optimum home theatre audio then need to have space between them or kept separate from each other.


Price is high however size of panel is small. Three reason come to mind.

First, price is high reason ML has to cover from sales not only part of factory cost attributable to manufacture this product however in addition part of other company cost too. For example marketing, administrative and distribution expense. How will ML recover other company cost if not basically through revenue from primary operation.

Second, material, machinery dep. etc. to build only panel in relation to other cost specific to manufacture entire ML hybrids perhaps is comparatively low. Therefore large panel size or small, expense to build will vary but not amount to much in relation to other than panel product cost.

Third, ML may desire greater contribution margin from center channel therefore set higher price provided market may be able to absorb higher price. In other words provided consumers are willing to pay high price.

Yep. If people are willing to pay, then they are going to charge as much as they can. That's how business works.

 

[Rehan Azim Hashmi]

Yep. If people are willing to pay, then they are going to charge as much as they can. That's how business works.

Not all business. Example Walmart departmental store, Local grocery store carrying food essentials.

Your statement does apply to luxury items. Or perhaps items in short supply.

 

[Nuri58]

I thought an EL panel was superior to a tweeter and since dialogue is ranging from say 100 - 1000 Hz this would be handled by the woofer and ES panel, not the tweeter. Is the reason for a tweeter then linked to vertical dispersion is varying with frequenscy and given the limited height of a center speaker in need of the tweeter - my old Aeon i had a "comensator" for high frequencies (a tweeter pointing upwards) to compensate for the high frequencies.

Next question is the cost of the ES panel which pussels me. Is a say 10% increase in ES size meaning 5% or 20% increse in peoduction cost? And taking the ESL 9 and ESL X as examples the ES panels are not more than 10% different in size but the cost is more like 2/3 more. Also the impedance drops to 0.8 Ohm and 1. 6 ohm respectively so is there a difference in the quality of the panels (air frames are different but other than that). And if the panels are of the same quality the the cost diff must be linked mainly to the woofers and maybe cross-over. I just wonder what drives the pricing here and if the audible difference is actually there? I have not tested the two using the same equipment nor the same room. And given how long it takes to have them placed optimal at home I doubt the dealer will manage when you audit them in the shop.

 

[Robert D]

Not all business. Example Walmart departmental store, Local grocery store carrying food essentials.

Your statement does apply to luxury items, for instance luxury items like caviar. Or perhaps items in short supply.

Even food is that way, unless the government is controlling prices. Its a free enterprise economy. It's that way here in the US at least.

 

[Rehan Azim Hashmi]

I thought an EL panel was superior to a tweeter and since dialogue is ranging from say 100 - 1000 Hz this would be handled by the woofer and ES panel, not the tweeter. Is the reason for a tweeter then linked to vertical dispersion is varying with frequenscy and given the limited height of a center speaker in need of the tweeter - my old Aeon i had a "comensator" for high frequencies (a tweeter pointing upwards) to compensate for the high frequencies.

Next question is the cost of the ES panel which pussels me. Is a say 10% increase in ES size meaning 5% or 20% increse in peoduction cost? And taking the ESL 9 and ESL X as examples the ES panels are not more than 10% different in size but the cost is more like 2/3 more. Also the impedance drops to 0.8 Ohm and 1. 6 ohm respectively so is there a difference in the quality of the panels (air frames are different but other than that). And if the panels are of the same quality the the cost diff must be linked mainly to the woofers and maybe cross-over. I just wonder what drives the pricing here and if the audible difference is actually there? I have not tested the two using the same equipment nor the same room. And given how long it takes to have them placed optimal at home I doubt the dealer will manage when you audit them in the shop.

INTRODUCTION:

Neither do I have a university electronic engineering background. Nor am I a speaker designer employed by ML. Therefore to answer your question I would have to extrapolate. Good practice is to answer questions with relevant facts rather than extrapolation. Possibility of other person searching for accurate answer being misled is reduced. I have not recently read relevant technical data of ML center channel.

PART 1.

1.
Human dialogue frequency range seems narrow and therefore inaccurate to me. If you refer to ordinary speech this range may apply. If I am not mistaken male and female opera artists go lower and higher respectively than are indicated by this range.

2.
Greater the panel size the more capable panel is in recreating lower low frequency sound. Due to very small electrostatic panel size speaker unable to recreate very low, low or mid bass frequency sound. Hence the inclusion of mid bass woofer. When we slowly increase the frequency of sound signal. Then there is output transfer from mid bass driver to electrostatic panel.

3.
Your assertion seems plausible, namely, folded Motion tweeter augments the overall high frequency response by improving vertical dispersion and ambience. Whether included for any other reason, I do not know, I would again be forced to extrapolate.

PART 2.
1.
Panels are 10% different in size but cost increase is 66%. Inaccurate or wrong to say cost increase. Say market price increase. Price comprises cost plus profit. Difference in panel size will add 10% to variable panel cost. Price is set at the discretion of management. Management decides low C.M.U or high C.M.U. Cost not the only factor to be considered when setting price.

2.
Cost difference between two is further linked to cabinet wall breadth, strength of material, accompanying type and quantity of feet, size quantity and quality of transformer, quality and type of speaker terminal, reinforcement or bracing if any, internal wire material and gauge, natural wood veneer and related polish and last inside enclosure rear wave dampening material since the ELS 9 front woofer is in sealed enclosure unlike ELS X front woofer.

3.
I extrapolate since listened extensively to ELS 9 and some years prior briefly auditioned Electromotion ELS. Not audition ELS X. After separately listening to both I can confidently assert clear difference in sound. I like and prefer the sound of ELS 9.

In my opinion, audible difference may be heard when comparing ELS 9 and ESL X due to the following reasons. First, due to paper or pulp woofer material compared to aluminum woofer. Second, less resonating heavier frame. Allow resolving of fine detail. Third, slightly larger area of panel. Fourth woofer type mix - combination versus only bass reflex. Difference in frequency to impedance profile. Assuming for both speakers all other sound variance factors do not vary.

 

[Rehan Azim Hashmi]

Even food is that way, unless the government is controlling prices. Its a free enterprise economy. It's that way here in the US at least.

Least of three Evel Knevel is monopolistic competition. Other two formats in increasing order of severity of injury to pure competition and ergo to welfare of consumer are oligopoly and monopoly. No terms do not refer to fat and fatter people.

Average US citizen in difficult predicament if daily essential price reaches high market value. There are antitrust laws to protect the invisible hand of competition. Preservation of pure market competition through regulation prevent excesses of capitalism from taking place. There are always couple or few examples where firms have subverted competition to form pure monopoly. And raked in exorbitant profit by essentially killing better ideas that could challenge their market dominance by buying out new entrants to market, capturing nearly 100% market share and concomitant charging of highest price that consumers are reluctantly willing to pay. Believe ?

During war factors of production are realigned to produce weapons and labor is moved away from agricultural, and non weapon producing industry. When production slows down or output falls in non weapon producing industry and if consumer demand remains strong for non weapon goods there will arise supply shortage.Government tries to prevent market price of good from shooting up by controlling and consequently lowering price. Since there is shortage of food items therefore government rations goods by not allowing family purchase above a given qty limit and this maximum qty. can be withdrawn over a certain time period. Cycle of periodic depletion and replenishment not exceeding limit keeps going on until war is over.

 

[Robert D]

Least of three Evel Knevel is monopolistic competition. Other two formats in increasing order of severity of injury to pure competition and ergo to welfare of consumer are oligopoly and monopoly.

Average US citizen in difficult predicament if daily essential price reaches high market value. There are antitrust laws to protect the invisible hand of competition. Preservation of pure market competition through regulation prevent excesses of capitalism from taking place. There are always couple or few examples where firms have subverted competition to form pure monopoly. And raked in exorbitant profit by essentially killing better ideas that could challenge their market dominance by buying out new entrants to market, capturing nearly 100% market share and concomitant charging of highest price that consumers are reluctantly willing to pay. Believe ?

During war factors of production are realigned to produce weapons and labor is moved away from agricultural, and non weapon producing industry. When production slows down or output falls in non weapon producing industry and if consumer demand remains strong for non weapon goods there will arise supply shortage.Government tries to prevent market price of good from shooting up by controlling and consequently lowering price. Since there is shortage of food items therefore government rations goods by not allowing family purchase above a given qty limit and this maximum qty. can be withdrawn over a certain time period. Cycle of periodic depletion and replenishment not exceeding limit keeps going on until war is over.

EXERCISE YOUR INTELLECTUAL MUSCLE.
A itsy bitsy critical thinking effort. US government has promised quantum of solace to Ukraine, lifeblood of US tax payers, to make US poor poorer and rich richer when revitalization of Ukraine commences.

Good stuff. I agree about Ukraine. I don't know if that's ever going to end. The goose that lays the Golden eggs.

 

[Nuri58]

INTRODUCTION:

Neither do I have a university electronic engineering background. Nor am I a speaker designer employed by ML. Therefore to answer your question I would have to extrapolate. Good practice is to answer questions with relevant facts rather than extrapolation. Possibility of other person searching for accurate answer being misled is reduced. I have not recently read relevant technical data of ML center channel.

PART 1.

1.
Human dialogue frequency range seems narrow and therefore inaccurate to me. If you refer to ordinary speech this range may apply. If I am not mistaken male and female opera artists go lower and higher respectively than are indicated by this range.

2.
Greater the panel size the more capable panel is in recreating lower low frequency sound. Due to very small electrostatic panel size speaker unable to recreate very low, low or mid bass frequency sound. Hence the inclusion of mid bass woofer. When we slowly increase the frequency of sound signal. Then there is output transfer from mid bass driver to electrostatic panel.

3.
Your assertion seems plausible, namely, folded Motion tweeter augments the overall high frequency response by improving vertical dispersion and ambience. Whether included for any other reason, I do not know, I would again be forced to extrapolate.

PART 2.

1.
In reality not the case however assume ML assembles only one product and outsources all parts of hybrid loudspeaker. Assume outsourced contract specify 10% increase in panel size at10% increase in former panel price. Since new larger parts are required to maintain balance in design or to accurately increase in scale. Hence assume all related hybrid part price will increase by same 10%. For instance, larger cabinet, larger woofer, higher rating crossover component, larger grille cost etc. Assume for variable cost activity base measurement is in output unit. Assume D.L.H.U and D.L.C.U does not change. Assume total variable material cost per unit after addition of all individual variable material unit cost result in total 10 percent increase.

When management decides to increase electrostatic panel size by 10 percent. Immediately production may not be able to start due to long term lock in nature of committed capacity cost and short-term lock in nature of discretionary cost. For instance, factory building, specialized machinery, warehouse may be disposed of in short term however this action will harm the long-term profitability and continuity of firm. Discretionary fixed cost for example maintenance, insurance, advertising have duration of single budget period. These cost result from contractual obligation and are in the short-term fixed. Management unable to change without providing legal remedy. When increase in panel size is implemented then assume total fixed cost include 10% increase in shape of capitalized plant additions.

Annual Production level 0 units.
After 10% increase in panel size and based on assumptions. Total product cost if production level 0 is equal to current annual dep. cost, 850,000.
Total V.M.C and total V.DL.C both are equal to zero.

Annual production level 400 units.
When output is 400 units total fixed cost remains static at value after capitalized additions equal to 8,500,000. At 10% straight line dep. annual dep. is 850,000.

When production level is 400 units.
Then total V.M.C is equal to
activity level x 1.1 x prior total V.M.C.U
Activity level x 1.1 x 2500 = 1,100,000
400 x 1.1 x 2500= 1,100,000

When production level is 400 units.
Then total V.DL.C is equal to
activity level x 1 x prior total V.DL.C.U.
400 x 1 x 3000= 1,200,000

New total production cost 3,150,000.
Prior year production cost 3,000,000.
Increase in production cost 150,000 or 5 %.
In this case increase in production cost percentage could be any number.

2.
Panels are 10% different in size but cost increase is 66%. Inaccurate or wrong to say cost increase. Say market price increase. Price comprises cost plus profit. Difference in panel size will add 10% to variable panel cost. Price is set at the discretion of management. Management decides low C.M.U or high C.M.U. Cost not the only factor to be considered when setting price.

3.
Cost difference between two is further linked to cabinet wall breadth, strength of material, accompanying type and quantity of feet, size quantity and quality of transformer, quality and type of speaker terminal, reinforcement or bracing if any, internal wire material and gauge, natural wood veneer and related polish and last inside enclosure rear wave dampening material since the ELS 9 front woofer is in sealed enclosure unlike ELS X front woofer.

4.
I extrapolate since listened extensively to ELS 9 and some years prior briefly auditioned Electromotion ELS. Not audition ELS X. After separately listening to both I can confidently assert clear difference in sound. I like and prefer the sound of ELS 9. In my opinion, audible difference may be heard attributable to the following reasons. First, due to paper or pulp woofer material compared to aluminum woofer. Second, less resonating heavier frame. Allow resolving of fine detail. Third, slightly larger area of panel. Fourth woofer type mix - combination versus only bass reflex. Difference in frequency to impedance profile. Assuming for both speakers all other sound variance factors do not vary.

Yes, a lot is guessing work - the low frequencies are all straight forward and an opera singer (not the most common in films at least the ones I watch) may go beyond the span I mentioned. Regardless that, the cross-over is in that range, which must be an issue that somehow is addressed fairly well.

On the cost - usually if you go bigger (or smaller) cost increase may go much bigger (maybe it takes something more to get the panel just right in terms of craftmanship) and the R&D cost obviously has to be shared on a lower number of units produced - but the question earlier was why the panels are not bigger in the first place if cost increase is not big but sonic enhancement is?

On the note of ELS 9 I did overlook the fact that the ELS 9 is sealed and the X is not. That will give the 9 an advantage in having better (more accurate or quick) bass not least in the deeper notes. Since I am using a sealed sub hence only having the X taking care of frequencies above 80 Hz I guess that's what compensates for the sonic performance - at least I do not hear a big difference.

Lastly does anyone know if there is a difference in the panels apart from the more the air frame and obviously their sizes. I still wonder why the impidiance on the one panel goes half the other one.

 

[Rehan Azim Hashmi]

Yes, a lot is guessing work - the low frequencies are all straight forward and an opera singer (not the most common in films at least the ones I watch) may go beyond the span I mentioned. Regardless that, the cross-over is in that range, which must be an issue that somehow is addressed fairly well.

On the cost - usually if you go bigger (or smaller) cost increase may go much bigger (maybe it takes something more to get the panel just right in terms of craftmanship) and the R&D cost obviously has to be shared on a lower number of units produced - but the question earlier was why the panels are not bigger in the first place if cost increase is not big but sonic enhancement is?

On the note of ELS 9 I did overlook the fact that the ELS 9 is sealed and the X is not. That will give the 9 an advantage in having better (more accurate or quick) bass not least in the deeper notes. Since I am using a sealed sub hence only having the X taking care of frequencies above 80 Hz I guess that's what compensates for the sonic performance - at least I do not hear a big difference.

Lastly does anyone know if there is a difference in the panels apart from the more the air frame and obviously their sizes. I still wonder why the impidiance on the one panel goes half the other one.

PART 1.

I do not know if there are differences in panels apart from what was mentioned. However, guess the Neolith gets the best quality, durable and ultra high performance film material. Perhaps better than mylar if such a material is available. And precise and comprehensive vacuum vapor bonding layering process. Do not know if exist trickle down of this process or Magnitude and extent of trickle down to less expensive range. For other parts of panel for instance copper tape, foam, adhesive etc I guess ML does not cut corner and use best available globally. The most skilled and experienced workers assigned to assemble Neolith panel.

PART 2.

INTRODUCTION.
Size of panel not related to panel frequency to impedance profile. Reason extrapolate based on CLS range. All four types of CLS had same size panel. Spar position on thin film and resulting division in different area segments was different for each CLS type. Original CLS and CLS, high frequency impedance fell the least to approx. 2 ohm. Next CLS 2 high frequency impedance fell greatest to below 1 ohm or 0.6 ohm. Last to arrive CLS2z high frequency impedance minimum value 1.6 ohm.

First, take into account only impact of frequency to impedance profile. This factor influences whether airy and extended high frequency sound from loudspeaker panel can be created by amplifier. We all know the magic of electrostatic panel lies in high frequency sound reproduction and to slightly lesser extent in midrange sound frequency reproduction. This is the real unique selling proposition for this brand and clearly differentiates sonically from electromagnetic dynamic loudspeakers.

In comparison to ELS 9, ESL X can perform sonic magic with less robust power supply amp and hence less expensive amplifier. Since price point is lower is important from consumer perspective that available amplifier matches and is less expensive.

ELS 9 price to buyer is greater than ELS X by a margin greater than 50%. At this higher price point market analysis possibly may indicate ELS 9 buyer may buy more expensive amp with robust power supply or stable voltage and somewhat higher current supply. Therefore ELS 9 drop in impedance to 0.8 ohm at high sound frequency will not be problematic for amplifier. A good example is Anthem MCA 225 Gen. 2.

Second, at higher price point ML can recover cost of higher quality and heavy duty crossover components that are not negatively affected by passage of high current through them.

Third, ML has to show improvement in models when ascending the model and series line up. Otherwise no one will buy more expensive loudspeakers. In this instance ELS 9 at disadvantage when compared to ELS X, only in regard to high frequency to impedance profile. However compensated by other improvements such as better frame for panel and aluminum woofers etc.

CONCLUSION:

In the end what matters is not touted product features or sum greater than parts rather the sonics produced by speaker and whether listening to music allows crossing threshold into the realm of personal satisfaction.

 

[Nuri58]

Since post #89 i seem not to get access. Just a message "we ran into some problems "

Followed by

"You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action"

But i still se the messages inth push mails.

Whyis this

 

[Robert D]

Since post #89 i seem not to get access. Just a message "we ran into some problems "

Followed by

"You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action"

But i still se the messages inth push mails.

Whyis this

Sounds like it may be a problem with your browser. When you had those errors, did you try using a different browser if you're on your pc, or if you're on your phone try using the pc? I've had problems on Microsoft's browser and then used Google's and it was fine. Try clearing out your browser's history and all cookies, try again.

 

[Nuri58]

Now it works - seems like. Same with other browsers but other treads worked ...

 

[Robert D]

Now it works - seems like. Same with other browsers but other treads worked ...

I've had that issue on some bulletin boards, including this one. Sometimes the board itself is having issues.

 

[DanR]

I’ve had the same issues as well and I have it on no other forum whatsoever, it’s something on this site. This has been happening for a couple months now.

 

[Rehan Azim Hashmi]

Total production cost $1.
Labor 0.3
Material 0.3
Manufacturing overhead 0.4
10% increase in panel.
Assume 10% increase in panel cost.
Assume 50% of material is panel cost. That is 0.15
After 10% increase in panel size and cost.
Material 0.315
0.15 + 0.015 + 0.15 = 0.315
Percentage increase production cost.
0.015/(0.315+0.3+0.4)
0.014778

1.4778% and this value depend on assumptions made.

 

[Brad225]

Not all business. Example Walmart departmental store, Local grocery store carrying food essentials.

Your statement does apply to luxury items. Or perhaps items in short supply.

Do you have many Walmarts in Pakistan?

 

[Rehan Azim Hashmi]

Do you have many Walmarts in Pakistan?

No branch.