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Summit vs Odyssey/Descent

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timm

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All - what is your opinion on this... On one side - you have the lowest frequencies removed from the cabinet removing vibration to the stat etc.... On the other, you have possible integration issues between the sub & the speaker.

I think the Odysseys sound different (not better or worse) than the summits. To me - it is a different sound - not necessarily better...but maybe better.

So, wouldn't you think an arguement could be made that a powered sub w/ Odysseys could match or even do better than the summits?

Would you say the Descent is 'better' at producting low frequencies - has more flexibility than the powered woofers in the Summits?

I think a good topic for conversation...at the very least. Maybe someone has compared? I have no bias - nor a real opinion...just would like to know if others have tried/compared/have opinions on the topic.
 

IWalker

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I think it really matters what you think of the panels of each. The descent is certainly better than the summit's subs when it comes to extension and flexibility of placement...I'm not sure about overall output. If you prefer the panels of the summits, then it's a tough choice...one that depends on how much music vs home theater you use the speakers for, etc. If you prefer the sound of the odysseys' panels...it's a no brainer imho.
 

timm

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I love the sound of the odyssey's panels. I think panel sound - IMHO - is really more of a room interaction thing than anything else. I haven't bought into the 'smaller is better' concept. I still think the larger the stat - the better off you are going to be... of course dependent on that room interaction issue... Do you think the Odyssey/descent combo would be as 'seamless' as the summit appears to be? Honestly, I never really noticed an issue with my Odysseys though. I heard the summits - and I would have to concur after hearing them - that the integration does in fact seem more seamless. Not something I could have put my finger on - unless someone pointed it out though.
 

amey01

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Iwalker has it right. The best ML sound I have heard was from a Prodigy. (I haven't heard CLSs or Statements for any length of time (or Odysseys)) so I really think the bigger the panel the better the sound. If you prefer the Summit panel then it is a tough decision (and you may well as those Gen2 panels are fantastic!), but you can always add that Descent or Descenti at a later stage!
 

timm

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Iwalker has it right. The best ML sound I have heard was from a Prodigy. (I haven't heard CLSs or Statements for any length of time (or Odysseys)) so I really think the bigger the panel the better the sound. If you prefer the Summit panel then it is a tough decision (and you may well as those Gen2 panels are fantastic!), but you can always add that Descent or Descenti at a later stage!
Amey --
Well that is interesting to hear (about the Prodigys). Here were my impressions of the Summits when I first heard them. They did not sound as transparent as the Odysseys (my humble opinion of course). They did, however, sound more 'solid'. I am suspecting because of the better bottom end. I feel like my Odysseys need just a hair more low end. I currently run a paradigm sub (non-servo model) - and actually control the sub level from my denon 5900 for music (analog connections) - and let my processor handle the level for movies. It seems to work best that way - for me at least. I just send 40 Hz / decrease the level from the denon - and that way it doesn't get thumpy. In fact, I would say it pretty much disappears. The sub is at a fairly low level - but, if you can believe, is pretty much right next to my seated position at least 2 feet away from a side wall and completely away from any corner. It just adds a touch of warmth without messing with the soundstage. I think a descent (I have heard with ascents) - would be fantastic going line level in. That way I could completely turn off any bass mgmt in the denon and allow the descent to handle it.
 

amey01

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It also depends on whether you will use this system most for listening to music or watching movies. My previous post came from my own situation, where music is the priority (I don't watch movies). Maybe a better decision will be to take the Summit and keep the existing sub for movies only?

Really, it's up to you and your ears. I don't think you can go wrong with either option.
 
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timm

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It also depends on whether you will use this system most for listening to music or watching movies. My previous post came from my own situation, where music is the priority (I don't watch movies). Maybe a better decision will be to take the Summit and keep the existing sub for movies only?

Really, it's up to you and your ears. I don't think you can go wrong with either option.
Maybe I gave the wrong impression.... The reason for the Odysseys was for music...I just happened to have 3 amps - I bi-amp the logans - and use the rest for a home theater setup. But, as far as I'm concerned - my old paradigm mini monitors were just fine for HT. This would be primarily for music.
 

edwinr

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The Summits are deceptive. They really show what they are capable of when you play full bandwidth music on them. Music that reaches very low in the bass. My Summits have taken ages to run in, but now they exhibiting the low frequency power you would expect of 2 x 200 watt digital amplfiers driving 10 inch drivers. They are awesome...

Comparing these speakers with previous models from the ML range is difficult. The new panels and powered subwoofers match so seemlessly that initially they may not impress as much. They are so smooth and integrated in their presentation that nothing really stands out about them - at first that is. This is a trademark of the VERY best speakers you can buy for your money.

ML should have a right to be very proud of this design.
 

timm

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The Summits are deceptive. They really show what they are capable of when you play full bandwidth music on them. Music that reaches very low in the bass. My Summits have taken ages to run in, but now they exhibiting the low frequency power you would expect of 2 x 200 watt digital amplfiers driving 10 inch drivers. They are awesome...

Comparing these speakers with previous models from the ML range is difficult. The new panels and powered subwoofers match so seemlessly that initially they may not impress as much. They are so smooth and integrated in their presentation that nothing really stands out about them - at first that is. This is a trademark of the VERY best speakers you can buy for your money.

ML should have a right to be very proud of this design.
Edwin - I think the Summits are awsome speakers - no doubt. I own Odysseys - and I what I really was rambling on about was the diffs between an Odyssey/Descent combo & the Summits. The odyssey/descent combo - for me at least - comes in about 4G less than a Summit. Throwing that aside - My impression of the Summit and the major diffs it offered above the other old lineup was the lower extended bass - which I think gives a different sonic signature to the entire speaker from the highest frequencies- to the mids - to the lows. Can that be gained with an Odyssey/descent combo? Can the seemlessness be achieved. Hearing it with Ascents - it seemed so (excuse the pun). thx. tim
 

theWB

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Edwin - I think the Summits are awsome speakers - no doubt. I own Odysseys - and I what I really was rambling on about was the diffs between an Odyssey/Descent combo & the Summits. The odyssey/descent combo - for me at least - comes in about 4G less than a Summit. Throwing that aside - My impression of the Summit and the major diffs it offered above the other old lineup was the lower extended bass - which I think gives a different sonic signature to the entire speaker from the highest frequencies- to the mids - to the lows. Can that be gained with an Odyssey/descent combo? Can the seemlessness be achieved. Hearing it with Ascents - it seemed so (excuse the pun). thx. tim
Timm, An Odyssey/Descent owner here who always uses his Descent when 2 channel listening.I have refrained from auditioning the Summits for fear of catching Joeyitis,(no money:( ,but it's never stopped me before:D ).Every Summit owner has nothing but great things to say about them and there seems to be more new Summit owners here every week.I'm quite happy with my setup,but the more I read about how happy members are with their Summits the more tempted I am to audition a pair. I wonder if they make a vaccination for Joeyitis or Speaker Envy.:D
 

Joey_V

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I wonder if they make a vaccination for Joeyitis or Speaker Envy.:D
Last time I checked, the director of RUSH St. Lukes Hospital here in Chicago said that they do not have vaccinations developed nor are they planning to.

JOey :angel:
 

Craig

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I think panel sound - IMHO - is really more of a room interaction thing than anything else.
I agree on this point. However, the following are some things to consider when comparing the Summits to the Odysseys:

I've previuosly owned Ascents, Odysseys and currently own Aeons, Scripts and Summits. My son is now the proud owner of my former Ascents so technically they are still in the family. Both are great speakers with great sound but there are some distinct differences between the two.

The Odysseys are a much larger speaker than the Summits so space may be a consideration. The Odysseys were just too large for my room and the Summits are a much better fit. The panels of the Summits certainly do not sound any smaller than the Odysseys panels which by the way is the exact same panel as the Ascent i (only the crossover of the Ascent i is different).

The panel sound of the Odysseys are superb and so are the Summits but may be apples and oranges here. Even the panel of the Aeons sound great under the right conditions and are only outclassed when A/B'd next to larger or new generation logans.

The bass of the Odysseys is very good but requires more critical positioning in the room to get it just right. The Summits are much more tuneable with their 25Hz and 50Hz bass controls.

The Odysseys require a much more powerful amplifier especially to get the optimal bass performance out of them. Try hearing the Odysseys biamped with a sweet and robust tube amp on the panels and a high current SS amp like a Krell on the woofers. The Summits are more sensitive and come with thier own 400w amplifiers for the bass and only need a moderately powered tube amp for a sweet sound with powerful yet tight clean bass (caveat: the room has to be able to support this quality level of bass).

A nice pair of used Odysseys will give you a better bang for your dollar but that value may be negated if you have to purchase the amplification needed to the most out of the speaker.

A Descent or Descent i sub may be a nice addition for either speaker but certainly not necessary for either if they are properly amplified. I'm sure a great sub wouldn't hurt anything and I would also like to try one in my room.

So, do you want an apple or an orange?
 
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timm

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wow - thanks for your insight. My Odysseys are biamped with a sunfire cinema signature (425/ch into 8/ 850 into 4ohm). So I have quite a bit of juice. I have my odysseys about 5 feet from the back wall(measuring from the rear of the cabinet) -- about 3 feet from 1 side wall. I can only get them about 6.5 feet apart (inside of cabinet to inside of cabinet). My room is in a basement. The listening area is about 20X12X7. Yet the room measures about 20X20. The listening area width is limited by a post somewhere around the middle of the basement (hence the 12 foot width listening width) The walls are painted paneling & drywall w/berber carpet. I would say the room sounds more on the dead side (i.e. no echo).

Any suggestions with placement? Toe in is via flashlight method - inner 1/3rd of panel. Seating position is 12' away. There is 3 feet of room behind me. My sub now is way low - but just seems to add the extra touch.
 

Craig

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If your room is actually 20X20 then you have some natural room nodes and null action going on in there. A square (four parrallel walls) room is a real challenge acoustically. Good thing you don't have a 20 foot ceiling. That room could be brought to life with adding some hard surfaces in strategic locations and opening a wall if possible or adding a false wall in the room to change it from a square to a rectangle or an angled or bowed out wall. Also try some dispersion panels between the speakers or on the wall behind you. Another place might be the side walls.


What does the bass sound like in there?
Try you sub near the middle of the room. Put in on a platform to get it off the ground. Don't corner load it.

Bass traps may help brighten the room by absorbing lower freqs allowing the higher ones to more pronounced. They will also probably inprove the bass as well.
 

timm

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If your room is actually 20X20 then you have some natural room nodes and null action going on in there. A square (four parrallel walls) room is a real challenge acoustically. Good thing you don't have a 20 foot ceiling. That room could be brought to life with adding some hard surfaces in strategic locations and opening a wall if possible or adding a false wall in the room to change it from a square to a rectangle or an angled or bowed out wall. Also try some dispersion panels between the speakers or on the wall behind you. Another place might be the side walls.


What does the bass sound like in there?
Try you sub near the middle of the room. Put in on a platform to get it off the ground. Don't corner load it.

Bass traps may help brighten the room by absorbing lower freqs allowing the higher ones to more pronounced. They will also probably inprove the bass as well.
Let me give you a better pic. The room is open - there is a wall that goes half way across the middle of the room (the back wall for the logans).
_______
| |
| 10X10 |
| |________
| logans | -
| | |
| | 21'
| couch | |
| <-- 21' --> |
|______________ | -

The sub is on the right side of couch - about 3 feet off wall. The bass is not boomy at all - it is subtle and the sub pretty much disappears. The logans are pretty much stuck where they are.'cept I could move them closer to rear wall - and possibly get them - maybe an additional 1 foot apart - 'cept that brings them within 1 to 1.5 feet of side wall. Any ideas?
 

timm

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ugghhh that didn't work at all .looked fine when I drew it out. Ok. picture a square 21X21 (along the short wall of the 'L')- with a 10X10 square added to the top of it(the long end of the 'L')...The INSIDE walls of the room form an 'L' Te logans are along the short wall - confused? That diagram looked great prior to the post!!
 

Craig

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If you need to place your speakers closer to the side walls then try adding some absorbing panels on the side wall's first reflection point.

However, if your room is on the dead sounding side then maybe you don't need any sound absorbing panels. Or...diffusing/dispersion panels may help. Try before you buy.

If your happy with the Odysseys then I wouldn't spend the extra for Summits unless you need speakers with a smaller footprint. Instead, add the Descent or upgrade elsewhere.
 

timm

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thanks for the input craig. Yeah -I am happy with the Odysseys ... just thinking the sub might add a little bit of air to the sound. I had an old audio pro sub which did that - but it is dead now and am not sure it is worth fixing given the woofers probably need replaced and the amp doesn't fire up anymore. Never heard it with the logans. Odd sub - think it had 4 6" drivers - very musical - not an HT sub at all. I might get crazy and mess with my placement a bit.... but will defiinitely mark where I'm at now....thanks again.
 
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