can some please explain how the bass is handled on the summit speakers? i know the summits have there own bass amps but i was wondering if the bass coming to the summits is muddy or boomy does it sound that way or do they have there own signature and sound the same no matter what type of bass u send to them? so if u have a clean tight bass coming to the summits will it sound that way or not? thanks i’m confused!
summit bass?
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roberto
Well-known member
Hola Khen,
Confused? Yes you are! First, there are only two amplifiers. There are only two woofers, one amp for each woofer. At the back of your Summits, there are three knobs. The center knob is for the intensity of the LEDs and does not affects the sound at all.
Two knobs remain. One control is to adjust 25Hz +-10 dB and the other control is to 50Hz +-10 dB. I suggest to you to start to use this setting: 25Hz knob -4 dB and 50Hz -2 dB. Have a listen with your favourite music and if you hear magic, there you go. If you might think that you need more bass energy, them bring the 25Hz to -2 dB mark. Have a listen again with different type of music material. Usually on most rooms, this is the setting in a medium size room. If you are using the Summits in a very large room, perhaps you might increase a little bit more both knobs. If your room is small, then you might have a big bass resonances. You must identify which bass frequency is more evident. Then bring down the control knob to bring down that bad resonance. Summit bass is the truly dream for any audiophile. You are allow to adjust the bass energy of your room for the most liking type of music of yours. I love mines.
Happy listening!
Confused? Yes you are! First, there are only two amplifiers. There are only two woofers, one amp for each woofer. At the back of your Summits, there are three knobs. The center knob is for the intensity of the LEDs and does not affects the sound at all.
Two knobs remain. One control is to adjust 25Hz +-10 dB and the other control is to 50Hz +-10 dB. I suggest to you to start to use this setting: 25Hz knob -4 dB and 50Hz -2 dB. Have a listen with your favourite music and if you hear magic, there you go. If you might think that you need more bass energy, them bring the 25Hz to -2 dB mark. Have a listen again with different type of music material. Usually on most rooms, this is the setting in a medium size room. If you are using the Summits in a very large room, perhaps you might increase a little bit more both knobs. If your room is small, then you might have a big bass resonances. You must identify which bass frequency is more evident. Then bring down the control knob to bring down that bad resonance. Summit bass is the truly dream for any audiophile. You are allow to adjust the bass energy of your room for the most liking type of music of yours. I love mines.
Happy listening!
roberto. i know about the bass control knobs but i was told that if the bass coming to the summits is muddy the summits will play what ever there amps will allow. so what is that? so let say i buy some tubes that have better bass than what i have now will the summits bass sound better or will it be the same no matter what i use?
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
What you were told may be part of the issue. Muddy bass can be caused by many things including your amp, speaker position (lower bass null or doubling modes caused by your room), cables, ancillary gear, etc. As a general rule of thumb, the speaker panels should be at least four feet from the back wall. I found, after having owned four different ML models including the Summits for four years, that five feet seems the optimal position.
Roberto's point is that the two bass control knobs should help address the issue. Try this. Set both knobs at -10db and listen. The sound should be anemic, dry, and thin without any body or tonal saturation. One example of this is a female voice recording that will have excessive sibilance and no ambience. Another is the string section in a good classical music recording which will sound thin with inaudible decay. If it's still boomy at these max. attenuation settings, look elsewhere to solve the issue.
Roberto's point is that the two bass control knobs should help address the issue. Try this. Set both knobs at -10db and listen. The sound should be anemic, dry, and thin without any body or tonal saturation. One example of this is a female voice recording that will have excessive sibilance and no ambience. Another is the string section in a good classical music recording which will sound thin with inaudible decay. If it's still boomy at these max. attenuation settings, look elsewhere to solve the issue.
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gordon i’m aware of the control knobs but my question is if i change power tubes that will give me a better bass will the bass amps of the summits give me that better bass? i guess i worded my original question wrong!
roberto
Well-known member
Ken,
Your Summits will reproduce the quality of the signal. If you are applying a muddy bass, then they will play muddy bass. Bring the level down of the amp, and have a careful quality bass listening. If your bass quality sound did improve, then you might use a much better tubes. Or try a different power amp that will make the Summits to sing the way you want.
I don't have any bass muddy issue with my Summits, they truly reproduce undistorted quality bass. And If I crank them up, all the room, windows and my neighbours are aware that I am playing them and showing them off.
Happy listening!
Your Summits will reproduce the quality of the signal. If you are applying a muddy bass, then they will play muddy bass. Bring the level down of the amp, and have a careful quality bass listening. If your bass quality sound did improve, then you might use a much better tubes. Or try a different power amp that will make the Summits to sing the way you want.
I don't have any bass muddy issue with my Summits, they truly reproduce undistorted quality bass. And If I crank them up, all the room, windows and my neighbours are aware that I am playing them and showing them off.
Happy listening!
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Your amp will impact the "panel" sound. Changing tubes will certainly impact the panel sonics. The two woofers are controlled by a separate amp inside the woofer cabinet. That's where the x-over adjustments are used.
Here's an interesting factoid that came from a comparison between my Krell and M-125 tube amps. I wanted to see how each amp handles the treble on my speakers, so I ran a couple REW sweeps and found that both amps were very close between 310Hz and 3k and traded places as to which was on top or bottom but all the while within about a dB or two, then they were identical between 3k-7k, and above 7k the tubes started going south. Ok, I get that, seems logical.
But, right at 310Hz is where the trace representing the tube amp made a obvious move to be above the Krell trace as the frequency moved lower. The tube amp trace was above the Krell trace by 1dB and they ran parallel the entire way down until 30Hz where the tube amp extended the difference to about 1.5dB. I would've expected both traces to be identical, but they weren't. The one for the tube amp actually showed that there was more bass than for the Krell solid state amp. Go figure.
I concluded that the woofer amps take on the signature of the power amp connected to the speaker. I contacted ML about this and they confirmed that this is the case, though being that it's only 1-1.5dB it's a small difference. Prior to this I would've bet the house that would not happen. Good thing I don't gamble.
But, right at 310Hz is where the trace representing the tube amp made a obvious move to be above the Krell trace as the frequency moved lower. The tube amp trace was above the Krell trace by 1dB and they ran parallel the entire way down until 30Hz where the tube amp extended the difference to about 1.5dB. I would've expected both traces to be identical, but they weren't. The one for the tube amp actually showed that there was more bass than for the Krell solid state amp. Go figure.
I concluded that the woofer amps take on the signature of the power amp connected to the speaker. I contacted ML about this and they confirmed that this is the case, though being that it's only 1-1.5dB it's a small difference. Prior to this I would've bet the house that would not happen. Good thing I don't gamble.
As @Gordon Gray explained, the external amplifier you use should have VERY little impact on the bass output quality, since booth woofers are self amplified (2x B&O ICEpower).
Makes one wonder why the bi-cabling wiring posts on the Summit and Summit X, since clearly there cannot be any benefit for such loudspeakers whose woofers provide no load to the external main amplifier.
Makes one wonder why the bi-cabling wiring posts on the Summit and Summit X, since clearly there cannot be any benefit for such loudspeakers whose woofers provide no load to the external main amplifier.
roberto
Well-known member
Hola Geeji,
When the Summits came out, many users had bi-wired cables. The main reason why you have on them the four cable connectors. You are able to use those cable with them. We do know the difference in sound quality on bi-wired. The non amplified models, Martin Logan still offers the bi-wired options, but do not on the newer amplified models.
On bi-wired config, there is more cable for the signal possible. Usually you use less power from the amp if you have long runs too.
Happy listening!
When the Summits came out, many users had bi-wired cables. The main reason why you have on them the four cable connectors. You are able to use those cable with them. We do know the difference in sound quality on bi-wired. The non amplified models, Martin Logan still offers the bi-wired options, but do not on the newer amplified models.
On bi-wired config, there is more cable for the signal possible. Usually you use less power from the amp if you have long runs too.
Happy listening!
Mirolab
Well-known member
Actually... even though the woofer is Active, and presents no load to your main amp, there would still be a difference in bi-wiring..... Because the ES panel transformer places a load on the amp & cable and pulls the signal down, based on the resistance of the speaker cable and the ES load. If you have a separate wire run just for the active woofer, that signal will not be pulled down, because it's just feeding the 10kohm (or whatever) load of the ICE amp.
That said.... I am not a proponent of bi-wiring. I've tried it a few times, and did not like the results. It changes the performance of the crossover, and if the speaker designed voiced the crossover with single wiring, then placing more wires (and resistance) into the crossover will change the voicing. If the designer voiced the crossover while bi-wired, then the opposite would be true.
That said.... I am not a proponent of bi-wiring. I've tried it a few times, and did not like the results. It changes the performance of the crossover, and if the speaker designed voiced the crossover with single wiring, then placing more wires (and resistance) into the crossover will change the voicing. If the designer voiced the crossover while bi-wired, then the opposite would be true.
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