Summit and Naim

[aliveatfive]

FWIW - My Summits are connected to my tube amp using Mont Blanc speaker cables. Listening at low levels produces a sound which has the same characteristics as high level listening. You may be experiencing an incompatibility.

 

[A.N.]

hi sjust (naim forum user?!)

i had the same problem with using naims with martin logans.

the naims just dont seem to whack out the current needed to drive the ml's properly.
i tried the aerius i have with an older linn lk1/dirak and biamped them with 2xlk280's.

jeez, these made a hell of a difference. actually produced music

tried the ml's with a nap90 amp too, (just to see how a low priced naim amp drove current hungry speakers!) oh dear. alls i got was a shut in, dark and drab sound, at all volume levels.

my advice is have a listen to other amps with ml's. as long as they have a high current del (not wattage) your ml's will be singing like a lark.

 

[sjust]

Well I was about to suggest you asked on the Naim forums also, but I see you already did....

What seems to emerge quite clearly is that over here, noone will blame their beloved ML's & over there, nobody seems to think the amp could be the problem

Hope you get it all resolved m8

Regards
magoo

Very right, magoo...
Unfortunately, both "camps" are biased, and seek the origin of the problem outside. I have climbed up the Naim ladder over the last two years, experiencing tons of joy, and thought I had found the ultimate speaker to partner with (Naim only builds crap speakers), and find myself in a pretty mess, now.

It's more realistic that I ditch the Summits, though, than changing the frontend, if I can't solve this.

no cheers
Stefan

 

[roberto]

Very right, magoo...
Unfortunately, both "camps" are biased, and seek the origin of the problem outside. I have climbed up the Naim ladder over the last two years, experiencing tons of joy, and thought I had found the ultimate speaker to partner with (Naim only builds crap speakers), and find myself in a pretty mess, now.

It's more realistic that I ditch the Summits, though, than changing the frontend, if I can't solve this.

no cheers
Stefan

Hola Stefan...the problem of your amp is called miss-bias switching distortion. Again, it is imposible for any diaphragm that weights less than the air that it moves, that remains always in between the stators, to produce distortion. Electrostatic speakers are used as a tool for "distortion measurements", due to they lack of distorion...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.

 

[sjust]

Hola Stefan...the problem of your amp is called miss-bias switching distortion. Again, it is imposible for any diaphragm that weights less than the air that it moves, that remains always in between the stators, to produce distortion. Electrostatic speakers are used as a tool for "distortion measurements", due to they lack of distorion...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.

OK, thank you, now I can sleep much calmer, because I know what it is, and that I just have to trash my Naim system. But then... All the rest of my family can't sleep calmer, because I have to crank it up, if I want to have clean sound with the distortion free Summits (until I have bought all the other electronics).

Hmhh, seems I'm in another dilemma, here...

Stefan

 

[kach22i]

Questioin - 1:
Is there anyway "sjust" could have a shop re-bias the transistors in the Naim amp?

Questioin - 2:
Is there anyway "sjust" could have a shop replace and upgrade the transistors to a more balanced and matched pair?

People tweek and upgrade amps and speakers all the time, just looking for a way for him to keep both.

 

[SteveInNC]

Just to throw another factoid in - electrostatics, specifically MLs, tend to be very low impedance, which is hard for some amps to drive. This could also be a factor in why your other speakers sound better: they may match the amp's preferred impedance better. Typical for most speakers is impedance of around nominal 8 ohms, some at 4 ohms. Be sure, if your amp supports it, to have it set for 4 ohms. Your Summits can go as low as 0.7 ohms.

 

[sjust]

Wow...
That's close to a short circuit ! But, wouldn't that be a problem with high volumes rather than with low volume ?


Stefan

 

[roberto]

Wow...
That's close to a short circuit ! But, wouldn't that be a problem with high volumes rather than with low volume ?


Stefan

Hola Stefan. Driving electrostatic speakers is not an easy task, but not impossible. Many high end brands of amplifiers uses ML as a tool design because of it. The impedance curve shows that only a very high frequency, around 20KHz this happens. Yes, it is almost a short circuit, and in general terms, if an amplifier can not drive this type of load (impedance is AC resistance, not DC resistance) will sound like without high frequency, no highs at all. This is not your case, your problem is distortion, and again, it is called switching distortion. Hope this can help, happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.

 

[Craig]

Sjust,
Naim is really good equipment and your Summits are top of the line MLs. However, you may just have a case of quality gear not playing well with each other. I've been involved with this forum for nearly 3 years now and I don't think anyone here is trying to blame the amp in order to defend ML speakers. Yes, we really like our speakers but we're not that arrogant. Obviuosly, the Cremonas worked well with the Naim so the amp is not inherently bad.

I don't have Summits but I do have Cremonas, Ascents and Aeons and 3 different amps. Occasionally I'll try different combinations of my gear to hear how they perform with different equipment. The MLs are consistently very articulate and clear at low volumes and more so than the Cremonas. Electrostats are very revealing of the source and what is being driven to them. That is what they do so well. They mask nothing. The Cremonas are more forgiving in that regard but are still a beautiful sounding speaker and more dynamic than MLs. That's where the Cremonas excell. The Cremonas don't distort at low-levels but they are not as involving at low levels as the MLs. But they do really come to life at moderate levels. Your Summits should be superb at low-level resolution.

Until you try a different amp (and/or cables) with the Summits you may never identify the source of the problem. And of course it's possible there's a problem with your Summits. But if the Summits perform well with another amp then maybe it was the amp. You could go back to the Cremonas with your Naim but then you would miss out on Electrostat low-volume high-resolution performance.

It's good to have knowledgeable people trying to help others with a problem. Good luck and I'm envious of your Summits.

 

[sjust]

Craig,
that was a VERY helpful post, and I'd like to thank you for that ! I agree 100 percent about your decription of the Cremona (I always describe her as "polite"). Amongst the best piano, violin (!) and acoustic guitar presentations I have ever heard. Unfortunately, in my system / room context, there were problems in the lower registers which I wasn't able to fix, hence the quest to find new speakers (I was "on the market" for almost a year, and heard many speakers both at dealers and in my home).

The Summit excelled in areas like stage, intrument positioning (and sizing), representation of voices (!), large orchestras (without getting confused), double bass, small drum sets and much more when compared to the Cremona.

I'll follow your advice and try the combination with different amps and cables, although I'm a little ****ed that I have to, because I was so sure that I had found my personal Nirvana with the Naim chain I use - again: in the context of my room and musical preferences.

thx, again !
Stefan

 

[sjust]

Status update:
Went to the dealer, yesterday (yes, he came in for me on a Sunday...), bringing along a selection of discs that would sound awful (remember: when played at low volume...) in the context of my system / room.

His configuration was non-Naim electronic. IIRC Lindemann Player (which is stunningly good, also heard that in other locations, 8000 USD range) Esoteric pre (in the 4000 USD range) Pass 350.5 amp (in the 10000 USD range), Transparent speaker cables (in the 1500 USD range) and of course the Summits. Down to listening levels where the "ambient" hiss was drowning the music, piano music came flowing out of the Summits as expected: Crystal clear, without even a trace of disortion, sounding like a piano with voluems turned down (what a surprise !). When played loud, the overall characteristics of the system were different to what I'm used, of course, but - hey - not bad. NOT bad, at all. (Again: Remember, that I had a whole Saturday in his studio where the Summits were connected to a Naim system, so I can compare).

He gave me speaker cables to try (Supra Sword including the bi-amp bridges), which didn't change a thing in the trouble area, when I tried them at home.

Next step will be getting a different amp (I'll give the Pass a roll...) at my home, and then make decisions based on the result.

Stefan

 

[roberto]

Status update:
Went to the dealer, yesterday (yes, he came in for me on a Sunday...), bringing along a selection of discs that would sound awful (remember: when played at low volume...) in the context of my system / room.

His configuration was non-Naim electronic. IIRC Lindemann Player (which is stunningly good, also heard that in other locations, 8000 USD range) Esoteric pre (in the 4000 USD range) Pass 350.5 amp (in the 10000 USD range), Transparent speaker cables (in the 1500 USD range) and of course the Summits. Down to listening levels where the "ambient" hiss was drowning the music, piano music came flowing out of the Summits as expected: Crystal clear, without even a trace of disortion, sounding like a piano with voluems turned down (what a surprise !). When played loud, the overall characteristics of the system were different to what I'm used, of course, but - hey - not bad. NOT bad, at all. (Again: Remember, that I had a whole Saturday in his studio where the Summits were connected to a Naim system, so I can compare).

He gave me speaker cables to try (Supra Sword including the bi-amp bridges), which didn't change a thing in the trouble area, when I tried them at home.

Next step will be getting a different amp (I'll give the Pass a roll...) at my home, and then make decisions based on the result.

Stefan

Hola Stefan...good to know that you found the problem...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.