Subjective vs. Objective

[amey01]

Well at least you didn't take my comment too seriously because I wouldn't :0

Sorry - no. I was taking your post seriously. Was it a joke?

If not, my post stands. Can you please explain what you mean?

 

[Zaidman]

My original post was an attempt to lighten up this forum. Meant no disrespect. Sorry mate.

I do have a telecom background but not going to get into a comparison of a USB cable to the Internet. Not the point I think you were trying to make either.

Enjoy the music.

Sorry - no. I was taking your post seriously. Was it a joke?

If not, my post stands. Can you please explain what you mean?

 

[amey01]

comparing a point-point link of a cable to the Internet is quite a stretch from a data perspective.

C

No difference at all (from a data perspective).

If you think there is, then please add that to my list of questions. Explain why ethernet/satellite/internet communications are so superior to point-to-point USB links.

 

[Zaidman]

I fundamentally disagree with your statement from an engineering perspective. I will not sleep tonight because of it. Nope. You're making quite the absolute statements that would involve a much deeper network topology discussion to debate as well as a very clear understanding of the equipment that no one controls. I'm not going to do that here. Like I said... enjoy the music.

g'day mate.

C

No difference at all (from a data perspective).

If you think there is, then please add that to my list of questions. Explain why ethernet/satellite/internet communications are so superior to point-to-point USB links.

 

[amey01]

Adam,

Just to clarify and I have no idea / experience with USB cables.

Are you saying all USB cables, regardless of the manufacturer, are all equal or is there anything that makes one better than the other?

I read, while doing some research for a friend, that some wires in the cable are 28 or 30 awg versus 26awg in others. Any performance differences with thicker gage and between copper and silver wire? Also, does length matter?

Best,

Gordon

That's rather a big topic there Gordon.

By "are all USB cables equal", do you mean in terms of sound quality in an audio application only?

USB cables are not all equal - some are far better quality than others - better connectors, better fit, etc.

BUT;

Do they all sound the same?

There are many USB transfer modes. I won't go into all of them - some modes (eg. "Interrupt") are used for zero-latency devices like mouse/keyboards. But the following are significant to audio transfer.

Synchronous transfer mode [guaranteed data rate]: In this type of connection, the USB host and receiver negotiate their maximum speed at which they can guarantee transfer and transfer data at this speed. It guarantees a rate of data, but it does not guarantee quality of data. You can see why most audio manufacturers DO NOT USE this transfer method. In this case, I can see that a USB cable may impact sound quality.

Asynchronous transfer mode [guaranteed data quality]: This is the transfer mode used by USB storage devices like hard disks and thumb drives. It is also the mode of connection that is used by .... you guessed it .......asynchronous DACs. That is, most (all????) USB DACs produced today. This mode of transfer exploits quality checking to guarantee the data is BIT PERFECT, however it does not guarantee any speed of transfer. It just happens that audio transfer is not particularly taxing on the USB bus and unless the cable is of particularly poor quality, the transfer can always happen at the required speed to ensure seamless playback. If it doesn't, then you will experience dropouts, etc. Depending on the coding logic at either end, it might just give up and display "ERROR".

It is conceivable that a USB cable will be of such poor quality, and generate so many errors, that the transfer speed will drop to an extent that you won't get seamless playback and receive an error. But if you do get seamless playback, then you can guarantee the DAC is seeing bitperfect data. The bus guarantees that. The type of cable will have categorically and unequovically no impact on the sound.

Hope this very short answer assists.

 

[Bernard]

Hi everyone

It might seem all USB cables are made the same yet thats not the case. The amorphous dilectric effect creates linear losses throughout the digital domain. These can only be contained.

C

Welcome to the forum. I'm in Ottawa too.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark,

IMHO, no need to withdraw. You didn't do anything wrong or inappropriate and this is fairly typical banter in audio forums. Actually, from my experience, we are quite polite and self policing compared to many other forums.

You've got some great technical background and experience that would be most beneficial to most if not all of us.

Please reconsider.

Best,

Gordon

Thank you for those very kind words. Obviously I was curious enough to see what happened.

I had a break through yesterday and finally got my speakers set up where I am happy with them. My audiophile friend came by with material he was familiar with and we moved the speakers around a bit and he agreed that I had them dialed in where I had settled them before he came. He didn't think my amp was as articulate at lower volumes but otherwise sounded very good. I can't hear that, and frankly am probably happier for it

I have achieved my goal of setting up my stereo to work well in the room I have for it. ( I didn't need to put up a wall. )

I have a lot of interests vying for my time. I don't see myself as being a positive influence on this forum, and I don't believe audio will become a huge priority in my life at least not right now.

So I think I will enjoy what I've got and put a pin in this for now. Maybe at some point my priorities will change.

Thanks again.

And bonzo, I'm sorry if you felt I was being a drama queen. I just realized frustration was getting the better of me, and I don't want to go down that path.

 

[Speedskater]

[QUOTE Pneumonic
Not when the overwhelming evidence supports that there is no demonstrated audible difference that isn’t measurable.[/QUOTE]

Adam, just one example. Whose evidence? Who supports?
Classic Ethan Winer stuff.
As I said, have fun.
GG

With respect to Pneumonic's reasonable statement, I believe that the burden of proof is on you. What evidence to you have that it's incorrect?

********************************
Even in the rare cases of power cords or interconnect cables or speaker cables sounding different. It may take a skilled engineer with the correct equipment to find the causing differences, but once found they will be reasonable.

 

[bonzo]

And bonzo, I'm sorry if you felt I was being a drama queen. I just realized frustration was getting the better of me, and I don't want to go down that path.

Well, you made a statement, USB cables aren't different, so I asked you which cables have you tried and on what gear, to which you answered - well, you still haven't answered, actually.

How would you like a conversation that goes

Me: Logans and Wilsons sound the same
Amey: Which Logans have you heard
Me: I have had it, I am quitting

 

[amey01]

I fundamentally disagree with your statement from an engineering perspective. I will not sleep tonight because of it. Nope. You're making quite the absolute statements that would involve a much deeper network topology discussion to debate as well as a very clear understanding of the equipment that no one controls. I'm not going to do that here. Like I said... enjoy the music.

g'day mate.

C

Go on - go for it. Explain why if I send data down a USB cable, that data might be different than if I had sent it down a ethernet cable or over a satellite link.

Do you worry that the USB cables that were used to update the navigational database on your next commercial flight might have suffered some "linear losses" and you're going to crash into the nearest mountain?

I think you're joking so I won't take any more of your bait.

 

[Hocky]

Data cables and the nature of data transfer is "perfect" unless the cable is broken. If it wasn't, computers and certainly the internet effectively couldn't exist. The data either gets delivered or it doesn't. If it doesn't, something is broken.

 

[|Tch0rT|]

If digital cables made a difference then you should be able to find one that can change that dress from white/gold to black/blue or vice versa. Oh wait that's a visual perception issue, that probably doesn't apply to audio so nevermind.

 

[bonzo]

Welcome to the forum. I'm in Ottawa too.

Bernard, Zaidman, can you please go listen to the Muraudio, the Omnidirectional Stats in Ottawa and let us know what you think of them? I am interested in these. Since there is no dealer network here, factory direct might be much more reasonable here for the ultimate dream speaker. Absolute Sounds review said that it was the best reproduction of orchestra he heard. They crossover seamless at 450 Hz (which I understand is a dream crossover point many manufacturers try for but achieve only higher or lower, and is also the frequency at which they tune at the beginning of an orchestra). The reviewer also says that they sounded much better than the MBLs on which they were modelled. If you think it is good, I will fly down later in the year to have a listen.

 

[Bernard]

I

Bernard, Zaidman, can you please go listen to the Muraudio, the Omnidirectional Stats in Ottawa and let us know what you think of them? I am interested in these. Since there is no dealer network here, factory direct might be much more reasonable here for the ultimate dream speaker. Absolute Sounds review said that it was the best reproduction of orchestra he heard. They crossover seamless at 450 Hz (which I understand is a dream crossover point many manufacturers try for but achieve only higher or lower, and is also the frequency at which they tune at the beginning of an orchestra). The reviewer also says that they sounded much better than the MBLs on which they were modelled. If you think it is good, I will fly down later in the year to have a listen.

Consider it done Kedar. I'm currently in Costa Rica on vacation; having lunch with Roberto and his wife on Friday, then going to listen to his system (again). Looking forward to it!

I'll call Muraudio on my return (going back Saturday). I will attempt to listen to the speakers objectively.....hell, no, subjectively. I will take along my own music as I can't believe some of the stuff that passes for music at HiFi shows. BTW, the Montreal show is later this month.

If you fly here later, consider yourself invited to my place for a listen, and dinner if the timing is right.

 

[bonzo]

I
Consider it done Kedar. I'm currently in Costa Rica on vacation; having lunch with Roberto and his wife on Friday, then going to listen to his system (again). Looking forward to it!

I'll call Muraudio on my return (going back Saturday). I will attempt to listen to the speakers objectively.....hell, no, subjectively. I will take along my own music as I can't believe some of the stuff that passes for music at HiFi shows. BTW, the Montreal show is later this month.

If you fly here later, consider yourself invited to my place for a listen, and dinner if the timing is right.

Great thanks. They have two models. One active, one where you can hook up amps of your choice. Try the active and see if there is a big difference with passive.

Do demo Roberto's Shun Mook Diamond Resonators while you are there, and please tell Ken they work

 

[RUR]

Great thanks. They have two models. One active, one where you can hook up amps of your choice. Try the active and see if there is a big difference with passive.

Do demo Roberto's Shun Mook Diamond Resonators while you are there, and please tell Ken they work

Well, if Bernard says so.....

Kedar, I heard the Muraudios at last year's Newport T.H.E. Show. I remember them sounding wonderfully spacious playing some Sarah Brightman, but I'd have to spend a lot more time with them before I formed any useful opinion. IIRC, they're quite expensive, passive or active, and anytime we get into this kind of price territory I'd be buying MBL 101's.

If they're at this year's show May 29-31, I'll have an opportunity to hear them again.

 

[bonzo]

Well, if Bernard says so.....

Kedar, I heard the Muraudios at last year's Newport T.H.E. Show. I remember them sounding wonderfully spacious playing some Sarah Brightman, but I'd have to spend a lot more time with them before I formed any useful opinion. IIRC, they're quite expensive, passive or active, and anytime we get into this kind of price territory I'd be buying MBL 101's.

If they're at this year's show May 29-31, I'll have an opportunity to hear them again.

Active, without amp cost, if you can get a deal, they might be worth it, the price might come down to less than MBL with amps. The reviewer did find the sound better

 

[bonzo]

But I think they will sound the like the Ethos and the MBL anyway. A stat is a stat, and an omni is an omni. Just sends music out in all directions.

 

[Gordon Gray]

anytime we get into this kind of price territory I'd be buying MBL 101's.

Agreed Ken, that's my next and final speaker. Can pick up a MK1 model on the used market for $20K or so. For what they do and IMHO, I consider that a bargain among the "uber" priced speakers.

Gordon

 

[Gordon Gray]

But I think they will sound the like the Ethos and the MBL anyway. A stat is a stat, and an omni is an omni. Just sends music out in all directions.

So you are saying that an ML sounds like a Sanders, which sounds like a Soundlab. A pretty gross oversimplification IMHO.