Speaker set up class

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spkrdctr

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I think someone like TTocs, Chops, or Twitch posted a video on a class on how to set up speakers using the guys technique that he teaches. I would like to keep that but I don't know where it is in the forums. Can you repost it for me? Someone contacted me for the info and I don't have it. Thanks for the help.
 

ttocs

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Speaker Placement Is King!

I'm in the process of once more proving this to be the case. I've been working on this big dip, no - not my buddy, a really deep dip between 60-70Hz that only shows up when both Large Fronts are playing the same signal. I go through the process of tweaking with no correction, then only after running Dirac does the dip show up. Dirac is only correcting "each" speaker, not multiples, so there's cancellation going on here.

I've played around with some absorption panels and some extra bales of rock wool and have gotten mostly minor improvements, but nothing that would indicate any "a-ha" moment. Today I did discover a half a-ha with placing one panel inboard of the Right speaker that is close to a corner, but then decided I needed to move the speakers first, something I have not wanted to do! But I did it anyway. So after a half hour I started getting some remarkable improvement!! The speakers are closer together - something I DON'T want but form follows function, and 7" farther from the front wall. I did no tweaking other than moving the speakers, then ran Dirac, and viola! (voila') the dip is less wide and a lot less deep!

Again, no tweaks to the subs or speakers, no room treatments, just moving the speakers. If Dirac is happy, then so am I. I use the Curtains in Dirac to keep the correction to below the crossover of the 13A's. I have yet to be happier with using Dirac on the stat panels, it's just not quite as "lively" sounding, but I'll take all the help I can get in the bass region.

I'm not finished, just taking a break, but wanted to post some good news.
210329-lr-postmovedirac-jpg.21484
 

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BDH55

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Speaker Placement Is King!

I'm in the process of once more proving this to be the case. I've been working on this big dip, no - not my buddy, a really deep dip between 60-70Hz that only shows up when both Large Fronts are playing the same signal. I go through the process of tweaking with no correction, then only after running Dirac does the dip show up. Dirac is only correcting "each" speaker, not multiples, so there's cancellation going on here.

I've played around with some absorption panels and some extra bales of rock wool and have gotten mostly minor improvements, but nothing that would indicate any "a-ha" moment. Today I did discover a half a-ha with placing one panel inboard of the Right speaker that is close to a corner, but then decided I needed to move the speakers first, something I have not wanted to do! But I did it anyway. So after a half hour I started getting some remarkable improvement!! The speakers are closer together - something I DON'T want but form follows function, and 7" farther from the front wall. I did no tweaking other than moving the speakers, then ran Dirac, and viola! (voila') the dip is less wide and a lot less deep!

Again, no tweaks to the subs or speakers, no room treatments, just moving the speakers. If Dirac is happy, then so am I. I use the Curtains in Dirac to keep the correction to below the crossover of the 13A's. I have yet to be happier with using Dirac on the stat panels, it's just not quite as "lively" sounding, but I'll take all the help I can get in the bass region.

I'm not finished, just taking a break, but wanted to post some good news.
210329-lr-postmovedirac-jpg.21484
That's excellent news! I'm still fussing around with the positioning of my 15's in my 'uncooperative' room. Since I think I've done just about everything I can (short of room treatment), I finally decided to start learning REW, and bought a mike from the guys at miniDSP. Arrives tomorrow so soon I should have a better idea of what is actually going on. As for how to fix 'my issues'... well, that is likely a whole different story... :D
 

ttocs

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I recently began playing with room treatments, specifically porous absorbers, really thick absorbers. Anyway, in the act of measuring different thicknesses, placing them here, there, and everywhere, I finally tested something I wondered about in the back of my mind but hadn't yet gotten around to doing.

Do the floor standing Width speakers cause any damage to the sound coming from the Main L&R speakers?

Yes.

They weren't causing any issues I could discern with frequencies emanating from the stat panels, they were causing problems with the bass. Those speakers just being where they were was worsening a problem I had set about to solve. So, I removed them. So instead of a 9.1.4 system, it's once again a 7.1.4 system. But it's the 2.0 that I care most about, so that's why it's such an easy thing for me to take them out of the system.

I bring this up because it has become more apparent to me lately that home theaters are better served by speakers built into the walls. This is something I've searched about and found info that supports my findings that when speakers are placed a distance from walls it brings unwanted interactions into play.

Width channels are a nice addition to an ATMOS setup because it brings another level of cohesiveness to the system. If I had a dedicated theater it is a no brainer to have at least the 9 bed channels. Oh well.
 

ttocs

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It's always something!

I chose this weekend to play around with some setups. Room layout, speaker placement, etc. I've been on the fence about buying some Isoacoustics Gaia II feet for my Expressions for three years now, but finally ordered them today. Then I got to thinking about some Isoacoustics Iso Pucks I bought in 2019 to try with a subwoofer that I no longer have. Anyway, they've been tucked away in a drawer all this time until I decided to try them for my Motif Center Speaker that's been wall mounted for a long time.

Since getting used to REW a couple years ago I found that the Motif has an unusual frequency curve that I don't like, but Dirac can tame. Turns out, it's the wall causing a resonance.

Up until about six years ago I had the Motif on top of a AV cabinet on its stand. But it sounded boxy, so I mounted it on the wall and found it to sound better. So I never questioned its placement again, until today.

I always recommend to everyone to try it, you might like it, with regards to not becoming complacent with where speakers are located. If you have the time, play with their placement from time to time, especially if other things have changed as is the case for me. So, I took the Motif off the wall and plopped it on top of my current table that's below the tv (I gave away the old AV cabinet a couple years ago and bought this minimalist table for a few of the components, the amps and processor are on the floor in the open space below the table). Low and behold, it sounds better. So I measured with REW and sure enough the frequency curve looks better too!

So then I began playing with the Iso Pucks, which are a bit too strong for the weight of the Motif, but I did it anyway. The Motif weighs 22.5 lbs, and each Puck is good for 20 lbs each, so the speaker doesn't weigh enough for "proper" usage of the Pucks. I also am using some cork hot-pads from the kitchen and stacking a few to equal the height of the Pucks so the speaker can be in the same location at the same height for an A/B comparison. I played a well recorded song by Bobby McFerrin, Friends. There's a point in the song where there's about 20 seconds of his voice with "S" sounds that can sound good or bad depending on setup.

With the speaker directly on the table I can hear some resonance, so that's out.
On the cork the sound is ok, better than on the wall.
On 3 Pucks, two at the outside rear corners and one under the front lip in the center, the sound is much clearer, more than I would've believed possible! The "S" sounds (not sibilance) were smooth and un-harsh. Frankly, I've never enjoyed using the Motif for music before, but as I write this I'm listening to only the Motif and playing music and it's very good. Who knew?

I went back and forth with both setups about 8 times just to make sure I was hearing what I thought I was.

Just goes to show that trying new things which on the surface can seem ridiculous can turn out to have great results!

Now I'm thinking about ordering some isolators which are a proper fit for the weight of the Motif. Might only be a small improvement, or none at all, but now I think it's worth a try.

edit: Just thought I'd mention something about placing the speaker below the tv. I don't like it in this location, I prefer the speaker to be on the wall and especially above the tv. But, I will go with the improved sonics, plug the hole in the wall and remove the bracket the speaker was mounted to.
 
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ttocs

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In prep for testing out the GAIA II feet which are finally installed on the 13A speakers, I am taking my own advice and moving the speakers a bit since it's now so easy to do. With spikes in the metal cups I had to resort to placing shiny advertising mailers under them to aid in being able to slide the speakers about, but, I had to be soooo careful that the spikes didn't exit the cups and scratch the floor. Now, it's just so easy.

So I'm fairly radically changing the room layout. Speakers are close to where they've been for a couple years, but I moved my seating back quite a bit because I'm not trying to enlarge the sweet spot. Since I got a great demo of the Neoliths a while back, I was impressed with how large the listening area was. My room isn't big enough to duplicate anything near that experience, but I'd like to widen the area a bit, and it's working. I can only go so far, and I'm ok with that. Dirty Harry said we've got to know our limitations.

Meanwhile, the soundstage is still intact and very good!

And by the way, the adjusting the centering of the imaging is quite easy with moving one speaker out from the front wall more than the other. My Right speaker is 2-7/8" farther from the front wall for perfect centering.
 

BDH55

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Dirty Harry said we've got to know our limitations.
D*mn right! :ROFLMAO: That absolutely brought a smile to my face... in fact, I think I know what we will be watching tonight!!(y)

Seriously, I'm paying close attention to your thread as you seem to be much more detailed than I am, but I promise I will eventually get around to installing my GAIA's. Unfortunately for my GAIA's, I'm still in process of various other equipment upgrades. That said, I think this will be my last go 'round unless something flat out fails beyond repair. Dealing with 100+ pound equipment, and even getting behind my rack to connect things is just becoming more and more difficult. Also, the little women and I watched one of our favorite concerts last night and things were sounding pretty darn good... without all the incoming equipment... :unsure:
 

ttocs

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D*mn right! :ROFLMAO: That absolutely brought a smile to my face... in fact, I think I know what we will be watching tonight!!(y)

Seriously, I'm paying close attention to your thread as you seem to be much more detailed than I am, but I promise I will eventually get around to installing my GAIA's. Unfortunately for my GAIA's, I'm still in process of various other equipment upgrades. That said, I think this will be my last go 'round unless something flat out fails beyond repair. Dealing with 100+ pound equipment, and even getting behind my rack to connect things is just becoming more and more difficult. Also, the little women and I watched one of our favorite concerts last night and things were sounding pretty darn good... without all the incoming equipment... :unsure:
I enjoy spreading smiles!!

Re equipment and changes, the best laid plans change. Today I quickly nixed the nice looking table I customized (chopped the legs down a bit) for my sources to reside within, because as was said by Robin Williams' character in Millennium Man "This just won't do" for supporting the C18. So I totally understand managing system evolution.
 

msimanyi

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I finally got around to moving my mains as well, and sure enough they aren't even remotely symmetrical. My right speaker is also nearly 3" further away from the front wall than my left speaker. (The right is about 5' from a corner, the left has no corner nearby due to a hallway down the left side.)

I wish he would've spent more time discussing the effects of toe-in, but I think I have it set to where it sounds quite good for male and female voices. I have a lot less toe-in than before *and* it's uneven left vs right, but everything I was listening to - and I went through a variety of genres - sounds great. Toe seems to have a large effect on the tonal balance of voices, as well as their apparent size.

I set aside today to be a big day for the audio setup, even beyond the speaker location. I installed the upgraded power supply for my Lumin T2, and the effect was astounding. Waaaay better bass, lots more detail and air, and several really harsh tracks I used for testing purposes sounded far less harsh. Soundstage depth skyrocketed.

I also set up the speaker-level subwoofer connections for two-channel audio and dialed in the various settings. My brother thinks the bass is too lean, but turning it up ever so slightly makes it sound like bad, tubby subs are in the system.

The last step now is to re-run Dirac, but first my brother is testing some cables for *his* DAC, running through my system.

Fun stuff. Thanks for the link to that video ttocs.
 

ttocs

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I wish he would've spent more time discussing the effects of toe-in, but I think I have it set to where it sounds quite good for male and female voices.

Fun stuff. Thanks for the link to that video ttocs.
You're welcome!

I agree, it would've been nice to have more discussion about Toe, but what I got from what he said in the video regarding Toe is that it can make centered vocals wide or narrow. Then, rake angle makes the centered vocalist higher or lower.

I'll be going through all this speaker setup again very soon after adding room treatments this week.
 
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