Speaker Cable Questions

[Big Dog RJ]

I have a full loom of Nordost O2 now but started with F2 then T2 then V2 then Odin. Each time I wanted to stop but the next level was just that much better and my CLX’s kept saying give me more. Recently I auditioned the new Odin Gold. Settled on one PC feeding my QB8. It was a big jump up. Looking at adding some more but need to save up for that to happen. When Nordost came to my place they connected 4-PC’s , two set of interconnects and then speaker cables. Just sounded so good can’t get how good out of my memory.

Agree 110% !

And why I say 110%... is because every Nordost accessory I've tried is not just 100% fantastic but elevates it even further 10%, so overall 110%. I admire the Odin's and Valhalla series but simply can't afford. Therefore I've settled on Frey2 and Tyr2 cables at this stage. I must say though, when I did get a chance to try out both Odin's and Valhalla's, it was very very very hard to return them, absolutely superb!!!

There's no denying it of course, until you try!
Well done GW mate, that's one very fine power loom you've got there!
Enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ

 

[Tmort]

My classic 9’s were connected to my Anthem amp with a basic 12 ga oxygen free copper, 2 meter set of cables and a similar gauge jumper.
I didn’t want to go deep cost wise in this venture but also “cheap” wasn’t a goal. Following the parameters suggested in Sanders‘ white paper for electrostatics I found the Nordost superflatline cables fit the performance criteria well. I obtained a 2 meter set of bi-wire from Upscale Audio.
I have to say the difference was beyond my expectations!
Crisper notes and far improved sound stage are the two items that come immediately to mind. The overall perf difference is just amazing. For a modest $300 investment I can’t imagine a more impressive improvement in my system.
sometimes you don’t know what you’re missing until you hear it!
so while speaker cable importance may prove a minimal deal with standard speakers I think it’s clear with electrostatics there are substantial benefits to be had! I’m now a firm believer!!

 

[sleepysurf]

Interesting thread. I've been using 4 meter (~13 ft) Audience AU24e speaker cables for over 10 yrs, originally with my Summits, and now with my Expression 13A's. I've always been very happy with their overall tonality and soundstage. However, after recently moving my amp/preamp to the center of my room, I only need ~6 ft cables now. After reading Roger Sanders white paper re speaker cable specs for stats (and despite a couple "iffy" comments in this thread about his Mogami 3082 cables) I just ordered an 8 ft pair. I actually called him, and after discussing which amp and ML speakers I was using, he reassured me that the Mogami 3082 (coax design) cable would be an ideal match. I trust his judgement, having heard his excellent speaker demo's at multiple shows over the years. I'll report back my experience once I get them. If they don't meet my expectations, I'll try the Signal Cables, or see if Audience can convert one of my long cables into two short ones (and perhaps convert the other to an interconnect, as I think they use the same wire/geometry).

 

[Big Dog RJ]

My classic 9’s were connected to my Anthem amp with a basic 12 ga oxygen free copper, 2 meter set of cables and a similar gauge jumper.
I didn’t want to go deep cost wise in this venture but also “cheap” wasn’t a goal. Following the parameters suggested in Sanders‘ white paper for electrostatics I found the Nordost superflatline cables fit the performance criteria well. I obtained a 2 meter set of bi-wire from Upscale Audio.
I have to say the difference was beyond my expectations!
Crisper notes and far improved sound stage are the two items that come immediately to mind. The overall perf difference is just amazing. For a modest $300 investment I can’t imagine a more impressive improvement in my system.
sometimes you don’t know what you’re missing until you hear it!
so while speaker cable importance may prove a minimal deal with standard speakers I think it’s clear with electrostatics there are substantial benefits to be had! I’m now a firm believer!!

Now that's what I'm talking about maaaate!

Cheers, and enjoy those very fine tunes!
WOOF! RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Interesting thread. I've been using 4 meter (~13 ft) Audience AU24e speaker cables for over 10 yrs, originally with my Summits, and now with my Expression 13A's. I've always been very happy with their overall tonality and soundstage. However, after recently moving my amp/preamp to the center of my room, I only need ~6 ft cables now. After reading Roger Sanders white paper re speaker cable specs for stats (and despite a couple "iffy" comments in this thread about his Mogami 3082 cables) I just ordered an 8 ft pair. I actually called him, and after discussing which amp and ML speakers I was using, he reassured me that the Mogami 3082 (coax design) cable would be an ideal match. I trust his judgement, having heard his excellent speaker demo's at multiple shows over the years. I'll report back my experience once I get them. If they don't meet my expectations, I'll try the Signal Cables, or see if Audience can convert one of my long cables into two short ones (and perhaps convert the other to an interconnect, as I think they use the same wire/geometry).

A very good mate of mine is using the Audience Front Row speakers cables and interconnects (top of the line series) with his triple stacked Klipsch horns. He was using the Audience previously on his Maggie's 30.7's, which was very impressive! He sold off the 30.7's though... just preferred his horns but kept the Audience cables! Paid a pretty penny for them, I guess well worth it.

He runs a full array of Mac amplifiers, has three separate Mac power amps, including the MC462 and C53 top of the line preamp. Great stuff indeed! Lots of big blue meters swaying from side to side...

Cheers, RJ

 

[twich54]

Interesting thread. I've been using 4 meter (~13 ft) Audience AU24e speaker cables for over 10 yrs, originally with my Summits, and now with my Expression 13A's. I've always been very happy with their overall tonality and soundstage. However, after recently moving my amp/preamp to the center of my room, I only need ~6 ft cables now. After reading Roger Sanders white paper re speaker cable specs for stats (and despite a couple "iffy" comments in this thread about his Mogami 3082 cables) I just ordered an 8 ft pair. I actually called him, and after discussing which amp and ML speakers I was using, he reassured me that the Mogami 3082 (coax design) cable would be an ideal match. I trust his judgement, having heard his excellent speaker demo's at multiple shows over the years. I'll report back my experience once I get them. If they don't meet my expectations, I'll try the Signal Cables, or see if Audience can convert one of my long cables into two short ones (and perhaps convert the other to an interconnect, as I think they use the same wire/geometry).

Alan, good luck and keep us posted ! If your not satisfied with the Mogami's I would for sure pursue the shortening of the cables you know you like !

 

[Robert D]

Alan, good luck and keep us posted ! If your not satisfied with the Mogami's I would for sure pursue the shortening of the cables you know you like !

Would the longer cables really sound noticeably better if he shortened them? I know theoretically it should, but could it really be heard? Why not just coil the extra up? If you cut them and then years later things change and you need longer cables, you're screwed.

 

[Russr]

Would the longer cables really sound noticeably better if he shortened them? I know theoretically it should, but could it really be heard? Why not just coil the extra up? If you cut them and then years later things change and you need longer cables, you're screwed.

So keeping them the same length is, I think, is most important.
IMO, if a cable manufacturer is producing the same cables in 2m, 4m and (let's say) 10m, they should ensure that the performance is as close as scientifically possible across all those lengths. If they have to "tune" elements of a cable set so they get the same performance, ce' la vie!

As for having longer cables, I've done that often enough - what I would recommend against, however, is "coiling" pretty much any cables related to a hi-fi system. You are far more likely to cause interference (even in shielded cable, imho) when arranging cables in a coil-type shape. Have them running flat on the floor, or ducking-and-diving between furniture, etc., but avoid coils! Coils (used to only) belong in X-overs, where they are finely tuned and installed to give the correct Inductance (the "L" in "LC Meter" that check inductance and capacitance values). Not wanting to be a jacka$$ or anything, but I feel kinda strongly about that one - no offense, RD!

 

[Robert D]

So keeping them the same length is, I think, is most important.
IMO, if a cable manufacturer is producing the same cables in 2m, 4m and (let's say) 10m, they should ensure that the performance is as close as scientifically possible across all those lengths. If they have to "tune" elements of a cable set so they get the same performance, ce' la vie!

As for having longer cables, I've done that often enough - what I would recommend against, however, is "coiling" pretty much any cables related to a hi-fi system. You are far more likely to cause interference (even in shielded cable, imho) when arranging cables in a coil-type shape. Have them running flat on the floor, or ducking-and-diving between furniture, etc., but avoid coils! Coils (used to only) belong in X-overs, where they are finely tuned and installed to give the correct Inductance (the "L" in "LC Meter" that check inductance and capacitance values). Not wanting to be a jacka$$ or anything, but I feel kinda strongly about that one - no offense, RD!

I thought about that, but was doubting that a magnetic field would be strong enough to basically get through double thickness shielding. Maybe it would? I'd test it, see what happens.

 

[Russr]

I thought about that, but was doubting that a magnetic field would be strong enough to basically get through double thickness shielding. Maybe it would? I'd test it, see what happens.

Tbh, I agree... but the context here is folks spending 1000,s of $$$ for what I will debatably call minute degrees of improvement - law of diminishing returns & all that. Me personally, these days I take a 10-or-12 gauge chunk of oxygen free cable and chuck it in there... my ears (which can still hear "teen ring-tones", BTW!) are just not good enough to discern (or pay for!) the difference!

 

[twich54]

Would the longer cables really sound noticeably better if he shortened them? I know theoretically it should, but could it really be heard? Why not just coil the extra up? If you cut them and then years later things change and you need longer cables, you're screwed.

Basic principals of Ohm's Law are what's most important, NOT the marketing BS from so many of the boutique wire manufacturers ! So with that being said, 'length' matters and in the case of speaker wire with electrostatic speakers the shorter the better. Excess capacitance is the enemy and it increases with cable length.

Remember electrostatic speakers are capacitive in design to begin with and adding additional amounts into the connection between amp and speaker via the speaker cable should be kept to a minimum, not only for synergy between amp and speaker but to maintain a sound foundation throughout the audible freq range.

 

[Robert D]

Tbh, I agree... but the context here is folks spending 1000,s of $$$ for what I will debatably call minute degrees of improvement - law of diminishing returns & all that. Me personally, these days I take a 10-or-12 gauge chunk of oxygen free cable and chuck it in there... my ears (which can still hear "teen ring-tones", BTW!) are just not good enough to discern (or pay for!) the difference!

Lol, kinda like how when my parents thought our new 4k LG OLED didn't have a better picture than our old 1080p Samsung.

I agree with you 100% though.

 

[Nuri58]

Many things can be said, and is said, about cables. One thing i heard is the should be cut to half wavelenght. Never got a clear answer to what wavelenght. If there is square enough you're well of and sam lenght surely doesn't harm. Now consider the cables inside the gear. These are nowhere near the cost of these external cables many invest in. I'm tempted to belive that analogue signals are sensetive - surely i can hear a difference between cables with more cobber when drawing lots of watts. Now EL doesn't (except the pasive woofers) so that's a point of attention.

On digital cables and interconnects i can't tell the difference (nor can a lot of professionnel mussicians). And that brings me to a testwhere interconnects were explained and interchanged - everyone clearly could hear the difference. Well, the thing was it was the same system playing with same interconnects all along - the change was a dummy system.

But sometimes the mere fact that you own a Louis Vuitton gives you the pleasure, and that is something you cannot discuss just like red for some is the rigt colour.

So listen, deciede and get what gives you the pleasure - rest assure that the sound is not really improving with cost of cables, but pleassure might

 

[audioxcel]

This is one of the most interesting demonstrations of the effects of speaker cable lengths and the effects for coiling cable that I have ever found. It is long (4 parts watch them all. ) It is not theory. It is an actual audibility test.

 

[Robert D]

This is one of the most interesting demonstrations of the effects of speaker cable lengths and the effects for coiling cable that I have ever found. It is long (4 parts watch them all. ) It is not theory. It is an actual audibility test.

Nice videos! He really lays it all out and measures. Thats what ive always wanted to see. The length of the cable does make a big difference in the loss of signal and coiling increases the loss in the upper frequencies. Thats pretty convincing to me. I liked when he compared thicker gauge higher quality speaker cable to shorter/small gauge. The small gauge wire had less loss than the higher gauge because it was a lot shorter. Lower inductance.

This really shows that if someone needs long runs of speaker cable, you better have some high quality thicker gauge wire to compensate for this length. The effect seems to be greater than I figured it would be!

Does anyone understand why coiling increases the loss at the higher frequencies? His scope showed that well. I figured it might increase loss equally along the spectrum, but it did not.

This guy is awesome!

 

[Russr]

When looking at a speaker crossover circuit, Capacitors form the "High (frequency) Pass" filter, and coils form the low-pass filter. As an alterning current (audio signal) goes through the coil, higher frequencies result in electromagnetic "pushback" that suppresses higher frequencies, in the same way that Capacitors "block" low frequency (closer to direct current). In a crossover, the Capacitance and Inductance are carefully tuned to produce the desired crossover frequencies that you want directed to the woofer, tweeter/panels, etc.

By now you're probably asking "what the hell is this dude rambling on about?". Well, while a crossover coil is neatly wound and made of shiny (varnished) solid copper, the scraggly heap of speaker cable arranged in a loose coil on a desk EXHIBITS THE SAME PROPERTIES. Therefore, we would expect that a coiled speaker cable, when compared against a straight or jumbled cable of the same length and type, would suppress some of the higher freqencies in the signal.

 

[sleepysurf]

This is one of the most interesting demonstrations of the effects of speaker cable lengths and the effects for coiling cable that I have ever found. It is long (4 parts watch them all. ) It is not theory. It is an actual audibility test.

Great find! He confirms my belief that a shorter cable run is usually beneficial. However, he's a "Pro Audio" guy, so typically dealing with 25-200+ ft cable runs. I don't think going from a 13 to 8 ft speaker cable in a home stereo setup will have a significant audible difference, but I'm hoping the lower inductance and other specs of the Mogami 3082 coaxial design will.

His measurements of the FLAT copper wire (coiled vs. uncoiled) were also relevant to my setup, as I just switched to using this Monoprice flat 16g wire for a 25 ft run (under a rug) from amp to sub (speaker level input)... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WITWH0C/

Even when coiled, which mine obviously isn't, the lower frequency response was still preserved. My listening test and measurements confirm it actually works very well as a subwoofer cable.

 

[audioxcel]

Great find! He confirms my belief that a shorter cable run is usually beneficial. However, he's a "Pro Audio" guy, so typically dealing with 25-200+ ft cable runs. I don't think going from a 13 to 8 ft speaker cable in a home stereo setup will have a significant audible difference, but I'm hoping the lower inductance and other specs of the Mogami 3082 coaxial design will.

His measurements of the FLAT copper wire (coiled vs. uncoiled) were also relevant to my setup, as I just switched to using this Monoprice flat 16g wire for a 25 ft run (under a rug) from amp to sub (speaker level input)... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WITWH0C/

Even when coiled, which mine obviously isn't, the lower frequency response was still preserved. My listening test and measurements confirm it actually works very well as a subwoofer cable.

I think that even a relatively short piece of speaker wire might have an effect if it is coiled enough times (see Russr's post above). I use 20 foot lengths of Kimber 8TC with my Sequels (bought them new in 1987) and due to the layout of my set-up the left speaker input terminals are 8 feet closer to the amp output terminals than the right speaker. At one point, I coiled the right wire in a loop about 8" in diameter to appease my wife. I thought I could hear a small difference between the two speakers so I decided to figure out a way maintain WAF and laid the right wire out in a snake pattern. It seemed better but was unacceptable because of the area it took up. I then, settled on laying it in a long run with one switchback under the Persian rug area rug that covers most of the space in front of my speakers. I didn't notice any difference between this and the snake pattern. It has been that way for 12 years.

 

[audioxcel]

Click on "Watch on YouTube" in the video.. Then, you will see parts 2-4 in the sidebar to the right of the video.

The moral of the story is that if you have to do something with a too long wire, don't coil it in circular loops; coil in in a figure pattern.

 

[Robert D]

Id like to see him use that method and compare a really expensive audiophile speaker wire with an entry level and see those results.