Some ClS Observations

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Beakman

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I've had a few days available to pick up where I left off . . .
I had bought a used pair of CLS from Brad and had only had a day and a half to set them up before a new job required my attention. At that time I related how terrible they sounded when integrated in my system that was voiced for a pair of Vantages.
This time around I unpacked a digital crossover and went to work. The crossover settings between the panels and subs is currently at 61Hz with a 24dB Linkwitz-Riley slope, a setting I dug up from one of the posts here. I had initially tried different frequencies and stronger slopes but even at 61 Hz a 48 dB setting gave too abrupt a hand off to the subs.
I still had the problem of hearing the speakers as just too boxy, honky, nasally like a cheapo car stereo, though not as bad as without the crossover for some reason.
So I dragged out a book on audio mixing to give me a rough guide on equalization and went to work with the digital EQ. Only the panels are affected by the EQ, subs are untouched by any processing and don't seem to need it anymore (much).
I made very small adjustments for a couple of hours until I felt that I had had enough and would only fool myself if I kept at it. This improved some of the problem but I felt it wasn't enough. So I decided to see what the "Auto EQ" mode would do.
What happened when the Auto EQ was done was a curve that mirrored my own but to a greater magnitude. Here's the result and current setting:
Note the big dip in the honky nasally area. (please note that frequencies below 100 Hz were manually entered)
One big observation with this curve is that although it rises and falls throughout the spectrum, one frequency follows the other more or less. Whenever I used the Auto EQ with the Vantages, no matter the volume, position, or limits on the EQ, I would get a sawtooth pattern along the curve, mostly in the mid and high frequencies. Up, down, up, down, up, down, and so on. Always!
Not so with the CLS. :think:
Now the sound is much mellower. I still don't think it's perfect, not by a long shot. I haven't switched back to the Vantages to compare, as I can only take so much of fiddling around with equipment rather than listening to music, but I do strongly recall the Vantages delivering more detail and life. Goldfrapp's breathy staccato inhale would raise my hackles coming from the Vantages whereas on the CLS it's practically a faint distortion, something else that I hear more of.
I've raised the CLS on 8" concrete blocks and have tweeked the positions a little, and I'm more amazed with their deployment of a soundstage. They're about 4-1/2 feet from the front wall, 11 feet apart, and about 5' from the side walls. They definitely produce more of a back wave than the Vantages and need all the distance they can get from that front wall. It may also be the digital crossover but I think the CLS integates with subwoofers way more efficiently than the Vantages . . . doesn't have all that bass back wave to deal with.
Ooo, one other thing the crossover does is automatically compensate for phase differential between the subs and panels. The subs are in the front wall corners, that 4-1/2 feet and the Cx has the panels delayed at 27.66 mS, the subs at 4.20. Interesting
On a related note, the heat went out a couple days ago, and when Steve, the HVAC guy came in, he was impressed with the CLS. Said he has a set of Maggies. When he left, I lent him my copy of "Get Better Sound". :music:
 

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So If Im reading this right you are running a digital crossover and a sub . The factory crossover is still active? If so you are overlapping both and that is gonna cause some phasing issues. Why not roll the CLS off naturally and bring in the sub with its own crossover! I run my CLS in a dedicated room SANS NO sub. Im one of the only few that can get the bass to do 40 hz I guess as my cement walls reinforce the effect and the Krell muscles them around.
 
So If Im reading this right you are running a digital crossover and a sub . The factory crossover is still active? If so you are overlapping both and that is gonna cause some phasing issues. Why not roll the CLS off naturally and bring in the sub with its own crossover! I run my CLS in a dedicated room SANS NO sub. Im one of the only few that can get the bass to do 40 hz I guess as my cement walls reinforce the effect and the Krell muscles them around.
What factory Crossover? The CLS has a Crossover? Even if it does, I have the external crossover sending all below 60 to the subs (passive on separate amps) and above 60 going to the panels. There shouldn't be much below 60Hz coming from the panels.
 
The factory crossover is in the black box CLS use as stands. This is actualy a filter but to combine it and a external crossover without disabling the internal is not total control. Im not saying it cant be done with good results but what are you really listing to. The speakers or a padded crossover and a digital device that exhibits its own timber. Lots of loss there !;)
 
What factory Crossover? The CLS has a Crossover? Even if it does, I have the external crossover sending all below 60 to the subs (passive on separate amps) and above 60 going to the panels. There shouldn't be much below 60Hz coming from the panels.
Hola...just wanted to say these speakers will show every path from the source to the final stage. Please believe us when we say they must be set with the right electronics and the right cables...if you do not set them right, you will get a not satisfied sound. They do like quality watts than quantity, and also will show a bad connector in the path. The CLSs are not for everybody...they were used as a tool design some time ago for brands like, Bryston, Classe, Mussatex Audio, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Jeff Rowland, Krell, Spectral, VTL, and others high end brands...also Mark Levinson...they are not easy to drive...and also specs are meaning less..trust your ears...not specs. How can you measure love or hate?is there any measure instrument that is capable to do this?...we are talking here with the heart of the musician(s) and the quality of the recording process...Please do not get me wrong of my comments, just wanted to let you know how difficult is to measure them...I wish you a very happy listening,
Roberto.
 
I use 2 pairs in 2 different rooms

What factory Crossover? The CLS has a Crossover? Even if it does, I have the external crossover sending all below 60 to the subs (passive on separate amps) and above 60 going to the panels. There shouldn't be much below 60Hz coming from the panels.

While the frequency response in one of the rooms is rather jagged,I get response(albeit much weaker) from both pairs down to 27 cps.I get incredible sound in my small bedroom with a cheap Behringer EP-1500 which can put out 700 watts at 2 ohms.I have tried every imaginable configuration with the CLSs,subs,and ribbon tweeters,various crossovers,filters,cables.
Room and placement will have more influence than investing thousands of dollars and hours.
 
After reading the above posts last night, I got up this morning and with a fresh ear redid the signal path on the rack. Source > Array preamp > Innersound amp > ClS.
:eek:
Yes, you guys are right, especially you C.A.P.
A totally different beast that had me giggling with my morning coffee.
Detail: Yes!
Distortion: Gone!
Stereo Separation: Refined!
Bass: definitely there, well balanced, maybe just a little light on the very bottom.
I'll still find a way to run the subs, but with as little interference as possible, perhaps a splitter out of the preamp?
Thanks for the critiques.
 

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