Small Sweet Spot

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MOON

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I am having a problem of having a small perfect spot for listening. I have 2 listening chairs side by side 11 ft out from my Oddesseys. If your head is right dead center, it's great and you get one big soundstage . If your head is a little off axis , sitting in the chair and not leaning towards the centre point ,the music is prominent from the speaker on that side of the chair.

My room is 12x20ft. It is actually 2 inches shy of 12 ft wide. The speakers have 75 inches between them, inside speaker to inside speaker or 7 ft 3 inches center to center. They are 21 inches off the side wall and toed in with the flashlight method and the panels are level. I was wondering if there is a way to get to take care of this. When sitting in the center , a singers voice come right down the center. When off your head is off axis a bit it is more prominent to the speaker you are closest to.

If you guys have any suggestions, feel free to give them. The speakers are close to 5ft off the back wall to the panel and the listening position is close to 5 ft off the wall as well.I have the 1st and 2nd reflection points done as well as absorbition on the wall behind the listener. I do plan to get the Mondo HF traps at some point behind the speakers and diffussion behind the listening position after reading that suggestion on the other thread.

Am I expecting too much that a singer should be dead center even though I am a little off to the side of the center listening position.?

Thanks
 
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beefchowmein

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I'm having a similar problem getting centering the singer. Though my listening space is not as big as yours. One thing I did notice is that not all CD or in fact, all tracks on the same CD have a center staging for the singer.
I would be curious to see what other ML owner experiences.
 

Nielsen

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This is the typical beaming of electrostatic speakers, however ML are by far the worst because of the curved panel.
I think you are on track, try and catch that back wave from the speakers.
I am not so good at inches and feet (when is USA going to join the rest of the world?), but I find the cardas method of setting up awesome effective, but reading your post I guess you are kind of in that direction too.
You have probably also experimented with various listening distances ? I find, that they sound better the further away you get, but at the same time, treating them as a giant headphone can be a powerful experience in a smaller room.
Hope the experts tune in soon, I want to hear what they have to say.
 

MOON

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Beef,

You are correct about some tracks not being recorded well in the 1st place . I played good recordings such as Patrica Barber for the test. I am almost tempted to tale the absorbtion off the wall behind me and try it behind the speakers and see the outcome until I can afford the HF mondo trap for that purpose.
 

Rich

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This is the typical beaming of electrostatic speakers, however ML are by far the worst because of the curved panel.

LOL. The curved panel actually helps reduce beaming and MLs are not as bad as a lot of electrostats when it comes to beaming because of the curved panel.

That being said, all electrostats have a very small sweet spot and ML is no exception. You are not likely to get two or more seats in the sweet spot unless you have a very big room and are sitting way back from the speakers. I suggest you try and center one chair in the sweet spot (that becomes YOUR chair) and tell everyone else how good the music sounds. ;)
 

MOON

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I had thought of that Rich. I actually have 3 chairs coming in this week. This is a brand new dedicated room. I had planned to put 2 in the middle for listening and 1 off to the side. I thought that way at least 2 people could get good sound.With one chair centered the other 2 would be further away from center.

Knowing that the distance is 75 inches between my speakers, inside rail to inside rail, is there any specific distance the chairs should be away from the speakers?I saw a real trap ad in Stereophile where the person in the ad who owns ML's took care of this problem with the Real Traps diffussors behind his listening position. There is a picture of it in the Real Traps advertisement in the current Stereophile mag.
 

peteys

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I have oddyseys also and find that the sweet spot is literally only inches. My head has to be in the perfect spot to have the vocal dead center. It is an incredible experience once you find that spot. It sounds as if the singer is directly in front of you. You would think there was a speaker in the center.

I personally don't think there is anything that can be done to increase the sweet spot for two seats. I mean they sound great no matter where you are in the room. But as far as the sweet spot it is extremely small.
 

C.A.P

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This is typical of most Martin logans. Some are way worse. The CLS are a 1 person speaker . If you stand up gone is the sweet image and sound. Stereo listening is not a spectator sport. That is what HT is for.
 

Neil H

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I'm having a similar problem getting centering the singer. Though my listening space is not as big as yours. One thing I did notice is that not all CD or in fact, all tracks on the same CD have a center staging for the singer.
I would be curious to see what other ML owner experiences.

After attending a music festival on the weekend I have been thinking about the opposite ie. most CDs have a centre image even when they perhaps shouldn't. I heard a band that I have seen many times before and they always sit in the same position. I bought a CD recorded live at the Port Faery Folk festival with the same songs and same band members.

On my system I get a solid centre image for the vocals when live the singer is on the far right and not in the centre. I also get the harmonica coming out of the right speaker when it is always on the left. The guitarist however, was on the left as he was live. My only conclusion is that the engineers often muck things up even when recording live.
 

Rich

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My only conclusion is that the engineers often muck things up even when recording live.

And there it is. The recording is only as good as the engineer can mix it. If the engineer doesn't work really hard to make sure imaging and soundstaging are correct, then it doesn't matter how good your system is.
 

kach22i

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Try this....................

1. Move the speakers closer together.

2. Increase toe-in (a lot).

3. Put something really dead in between the speakers or on the center front wall to absorb sound.

Your sound stage will be narrower, but the center stage and sweetspot will be wider and very solid, almost with a mono effect about it.

If this does not work, try try again.............it can be done!
 

randallp

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Also make sure you have connected the Oddesseys in phase to your amplifier/receiver. I made this mistake in the past and what you describe is exactly what I expereinced. Once I corrected the phase issue, the problem went away and my Ascent i's have not sounded better. Best of luck!
 

beefchowmein

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just curious, I know turning the left/right knob can center the vocals. But is there any negative effect on doing this?
 

mraudio

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Most high-end preamps that even have balance controls, keep them out of the circuit in the center position. If you use the balance control you are adding another device that the signal passes through.
 

C.A.P

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Try this....................

1. Move the speakers closer together.

2. Increase toe-in (a lot).

3. Put something really dead in between the speakers or on the center front wall to absorb sound.

Your sound stage will be narrower, but the center stage and sweetspot will be wider and very solid, almost with a mono effect about it.

If this does not work, try try again.............it can be done!

Been there done that.;) Although bringing them closer together does center the image it makes for a MONO effect as George said. I find the best is get farther back from them. The equilateral triangle has never worked with Logan's for me. (they are just to phase and time inhibited) It will take A LOT of patience but it will be worth it. I also make sure I am listening to good recordings. Like someone here said > Engineers make and mix at their discretion as to what sounds best to them. I will not listen to a bad recording. It will drive you crazy and make you move speakers all day .

I find that if the image is off try moving back a few inches and I mean only a few , as it will make a difference. I am also of the school of they need at least 4 minimum to 5 feet away from the back wall, and at least 2 feet from the side walls. If you have a small room with big Logan's, be ready for lots of reflections. Do not be afraid to adjust the tilt forward. I never liked the leaned back approach to the panel. Why would you want sound shooting straight up at over you. Get that panel straight as possible to shoot the sound at you, not over you. I have even went as far with my quest as to tilt them face forward in certain rooms.

Experiment with chair heights. Don't expect them to be a multiple person speaker. They are like a good dog. Loyal to you and only you when in the seat!

With that I like to be about double the distance from the panels inside edge to edge measurement. I am a STICKLER for poor imaging with no depth and width. These CLS can really play havoc as they have a wide image with its fat full panel. I feel for ya . Keep
 

Craig

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When Obama gets elected President ... well, he is promising "Change" isn't he? :D

Don't change the subject...especially to something like politics. :eek:

The sweet spot in my setup is narrow but not so narrow that you have to be directly in the center. I have a love seat sofa instead of a chair that sits three people. There is still an excellent sweet spot with two together and with three it is off a little but still good.

My speakers are 96" inches apart measured from center to center, front of panel is 5' from the front wall and each speaker is about 120" from the center seat. Speakers are toed in a 1/3rd using the flashlight method and tilted forward with JTWrace long spikes on the rear of the Summits. they are not toed in so much that I see the outside of the speakers. I can still see the inside fo the cabinet from the center seat. I also make sure the speakers forward tilt match each other.

It sounds like you have your speakers in a good location but you may want to experiment some more with positioning and toe-in. Treating the room acoustics may also help widen the imaging and soundstage.

I also have absorptive acoustic panels around the room and a bass trap behind each speaker.
 

kach22i

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Been there done that.;) Do not be afraid to adjust the tilt forward..................

Experiment with chair heights................

With that I like to be about double the distance from the panels inside edge to edge measurement.............

I agree with all three major points listed above.

Your speakers are already pretty close side to side, so that leaves you with getting more space between you and them, height adjustments and acoustic treatments.

That should be a good start anyway.

Checking the phase was also a good comment.
 

Burke

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On my system I get a solid centre image for the vocals when live the singer is on the far right and not in the centre. I also get the harmonica coming out of the right speaker when it is always on the left. The guitarist however, was on the left as he was live. My only conclusion is that the engineers often muck things up even when recording live.

Yes, they do.

If you would like to hear a properly engineered CD try this one on the Naim lablel by Ken Christianson here in Chicago. http://www.thenaimlabel.co.uk/true_stereo.htm
 

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