Should I be wary of the DSP in newer ML speakers?

[RichTeer]

Hi all, long time, no post!

I'm starting to ponder replacing my beloved ML Spires, with either the ESL 11A or the ESL 13A (the ESL 15A is likely beyond my means for the time being). It's my understanding that the ESL 11A is essentially today's version of the Spire.

I love the sound of my Spires (though I'd prefer a bit more weight to the bass, hence the upgrade consideration) so I'm giving MLs the higher preference. However, it looks like all three options use DSP for the low pass filter. I'm a die hard analogue fan so the thought of deliberately introducing some DSP into the chain, even if it's just for the bass, gives me serious pause. Alas, the Neolith (which eschews DSP) is beyond my humble means!

I welcome your thoughts and suggestions!

Cheers,

Rich

 

[JonFo]

No worries, there is much more to be gained from the improvements that an active crossover (XO), even if DSP-based, brings to the low-pass needs. Passive low-pass XO is power-hungry and affects the FR negatively.
They can now run a much steeper crossover, allowing the XO point to be much higher than with passives, thus minimizing dipole cancelation from the panel, as it only has to go down to the 300's.
Then because of the DSP, they can EQ and perform other gain-management tricks to perfectly suit the enclosure.
This results in the best panel to woofer integration in the line.
And a huuuge win is the support for ARC on the woofers. Low frequencies always benefit from effective room correction.

And your concerns about DSP / digital in the path is why the Masterpiece line is all analog from 300Hz on up (i.e. the Panel).

The sound quality of the Masterpiece line is top-notch.

 

[sleepysurf]

I echo JonFo's perspective. My ESL 13A's have far better bass performance and integration with the panel, vs. the Summit's they replaced.

 

[MisterB]

One of the reasons I went from ESL X’s to Impression 11A’s is the built in ARC for the woofers. My room definitely requires some correction in the bass frequencies, and I liked the idea of not needing to apply any DSP to the panel in order to EQ the woofers.

 

[Leporello]

Hi all, long time, no post!

I'm starting to ponder replacing my beloved ML Spires, with either the ESL 11A or the ESL 13A (the ESL 15A is likely beyond my means for the time being). It's my understanding that the ESL 11A is essentially today's version of the Spire.

I love the sound of my Spires (though I'd prefer a bit more weight to the bass, hence the upgrade consideration) so I'm giving MLs the higher preference. However, it looks like all three options use DSP for the low pass filter. I'm a die hard analogue fan so the thought of deliberately introducing some DSP into the chain, even if it's just for the bass, gives me serious pause. Alas, the Neolith (which eschews DSP) is beyond my humble means!

I welcome your thoughts and suggestions!

Cheers,

Rich

I wouldn't want DSP in the high pass section, but if you want the ultimate in bass response and room correction DSP is the way to go. You can do so much more with it than with active or passive analogue EQ.

I'm using a long in the tooth Velodyne SMS-1 digital EQ with my ML Descent i. CLSII's on top, which I run full range. On my medium-short list is one or two Anthem-equipped subs, to deal with the bass and the room even better. I think there would be some advantages to having the DSP'ed bass integrated with the panels, as the modern premium hybrids are. If you've got the resources to purchase them, I say go for it.

I've never gotten the sub EQ'ed to my full satisfaction. One reason is the sweep tones tend to drive the other occupants of the house crazy.

 

[BDH55]

You guys always remind me of just how little I know about all this stuff...

I still haven't run the ARC on my ESL-15's. I guess part of the reason is I'm running a hybrid system using my 15's for both my two channel system, as well as my home theater system and I just haven't taken that jump yet. In addition, I have a pair of REL 212/SX subs connected high level to my main amps. So in a situation like this, I could see running ARC on my 15's when I'm in two channel mode as I think that would get the 15's subs working best with my room... while my REL's would still have their full signal coming directly from my main amps. However, when I am in home theater mode... REL advises not letting the AVP control the bass as the REL's want to see the entire signal. So in a situation like this, I'm thinking I should do the following... first, run ARC on my 15's to get them set for the room... and second, go ahead and run ARC on my AVP afterward but set the speakers to full range so the REL's see the full signal.

I hope this makes sense. Let me know if I am on the right path or if I should find a new hobby...

 

[ttocs]

You guys always remind me of just how little I know about all this stuff...

I still haven't run the ARC on my ESL-15's. I guess part of the reason is I'm running a hybrid system using my 15's for both my two channel system, as well as my home theater system and I just haven't taken that jump yet. In addition, I have a pair of REL 212/SX subs connected high level to my main amps. So in a situation like this, I could see running ARC on my 15's when I'm in two channel mode as I think that would get the 15's subs working best with my room... while my REL's would still have their full signal coming directly from my main amps. However, when I am in home theater mode... REL advises not letting the AVP control the bass as the REL's want to see the entire signal. So in a situation like this, I'm thinking I should do the following... first, run ARC on my 15's to get them set for the room... and second, go ahead and run ARC on my AVP afterward but set the speakers to full range so the REL's see the full signal.

I hope this makes sense. Let me know if I am on the right path or if I should find a new hobby...

First off, run ARC on the 15A's because I cannot think of a reason not to. It's easy, it works very well, and it doesn't interfere with the calibration in the a/v processor, at least not with my setup using Dirac.

Then when you run the processor calibration that will include the Rel subs, each Rel is getting calibrated along with each 15A as a unit. Win, win.

The important thing to work out beforehand to get the impulse response right is to get the phase aligned for the Rel/15A working together. ML sent me some simple info on this a while back which recommended to play a tone and adjust the subwoofer to the speaker. I used REW to generate the tone, and also used REW with a second mic to record using RTA and watch the waveform live. ML said to invert the phase of the sub, or the speaker, and adjust the subwoofer phase until the SPL is at its minimum. I know, most will say to do the opposite (like George did when he got hired by Steinbrenner) and adjust until the waveform peaks while both sub and speaker are in phase, but it's actually easier and more sensitive to do it the way ML suggests. Once adjusted, revert the phase back to normal for maximum output.

I did this using various frequencies until I was happy. I wasn't sure which frequency to use, so I tried a bunch. What I settled on was a frequency that was close to where the subwoofer was transitioning up to the speaker. This is not like a regular "crossover" setting, where the speaker will be high passed and the sub will be low passed. No, the 15A is still playing al the low frequencies, so they are both playing together. I chose to turn down the Bass Control (which is a Low Shelf Filter) all the way on my 13A's, so the output is much less in those lower frequencies but they still go down to 20Hz, and let the subwoofers take over most of the job for output level. Therefore, since I am using a 70Hz Crossover setting on a 1100X subwoofer, I think I used a 50Hz tone as the "matching tone" for adjusting the phase on this particular subwoofer. I found that going a bit lower than the crossover setting seemed to work better where the subwoofer is closer to full strength yet the 13A is not quite at its minimum output. Trial and error, test and review, then do it again.

I've posted this before, but it helps as an aid to see how the Bass Control works for our speakers.
You can see how the shelf filter comes up to, or down to median at various settings. I really like how this works, with the 13A woofers doing a lot less in those lowest frequencies - yet still doing something, so they can do better at the higher frequencies, and it works very well.

 

[jtucker]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think the DSP is the "secret sauce" that makes the bass integrate so well with the panel. Just my $0.02.

 

[MisterB]

I still haven't run the ARC on my ESL-15's. I guess part of the reason is I'm running a hybrid system using my 15's for both my two channel system, as well as my home theater system and I just haven't taken that jump yet.

Doing a similar thing here. Using a 2-channel preamp for music and HT passthru feature for movies/TV. I ran ARC on the Impressions, but I am not a big fan of using ARC on my Anthem AVM 60 HT processor because there is no way to completely exclude the mains from going through ARC. I know you can limit the max correction frequency, but it's still going through the ARC DSP.

So instead, what I have done is manually set all the levels with an SPL meter, set all of the distances so channels are time aligned, and manually set the crossover points. For my subs, I have invested in a miniDSP and mic and calibrated them using curves generated by REW. That has produced far better bass for me than ARC ever did. I'm not sure if you could do this with how your REL subs are connected, but this method works well for me.

 

[RichTeer]

Thanks for everyone's information and advice, it's much appreciated! I feel a bit happier bumping the 11A or 13A up my short list!

 

[twich54]

Thanks for everyone's information and advice, it's much appreciated! I feel a bit happier bumping the 11A or 13A up my short list!

Rich, what is the size of your room ?

 

[RichTeer]

Hi Dave, my room is about 14' by 19' (7'8" ceilings), but is open at the back for another 14' and then round a corner. I've attached an image of my room's layout: the brown rectangle is my couch, the yellow ones are my record shelves, the black ones are my gear (left) and mono block (front) stands, and to the side of those (brown with a curved front) are my Spires.

 

[BDH55]

First off, run ARC on the 15A's because I cannot think of a reason not to. It's easy, it works very well, and it doesn't interfere with the calibration in the a/v processor, at least not with my setup using Dirac.

Then when you run the processor calibration that will include the Rel subs, each Rel is getting calibrated along with each 15A as a unit. Win, win.

The important thing to work out beforehand to get the impulse response right is to get the phase aligned for the Rel/15A working together. ML sent me some simple info on this a while back which recommended to play a tone and adjust the subwoofer to the speaker. I used REW to generate the tone, and also used REW with a second mic to record using RTA and watch the waveform live. ML said to invert the phase of the sub, or the speaker, and adjust the subwoofer phase until the SPL is at its minimum. I know, most will say to do the opposite (like George did when he got hired by Steinbrenner) and adjust until the waveform peaks while both sub and speaker are in phase, but it's actually easier and more sensitive to do it the way ML suggests. Once adjusted, revert the phase back to normal for maximum output.

I did this using various frequencies until I was happy. I wasn't sure which frequency to use, so I tried a bunch. What I settled on was a frequency that was close to where the subwoofer was transitioning up to the speaker. This is not like a regular "crossover" setting, where the speaker will be high passed and the sub will be low passed. No, the 15A is still playing al the low frequencies, so they are both playing together. I chose to turn down the Bass Control (which is a Low Shelf Filter) all the way on my 13A's, so the output is much less in those lower frequencies but they still go down to 20Hz, and let the subwoofers take over most of the job for output level. Therefore, since I am using a 70Hz Crossover setting on a 1100X subwoofer, I think I used a 50Hz tone as the "matching tone" for adjusting the phase on this particular subwoofer. I found that going a bit lower than the crossover setting seemed to work better where the subwoofer is closer to full strength yet the 13A is not quite at its minimum output. Trial and error, test and review, then do it again.

I've posted this before, but it helps as an aid to see how the Bass Control works for our speakers.
You can see how the shelf filter comes up to, or down to median at various settings. I really like how this works, with the 13A woofers doing a lot less in those lowest frequencies - yet still doing something, so they can do better at the higher frequencies, and it works very well.
View attachment 22338

Okay, thanks for the info. I did have to read thru it a couple times, but I think I understand. I hadn't actually thought about running ARC on my AVR for both my main speakers along with the REL's but that also makes total sense since they will be working as a pair. Also, using REW to help mate my speakers and subs is something I had not thought of.

One thing that seems to keep coming up and I just can't avoid anymore is I'm going to have to learn REW. I did buy their mike, and load the software but I really haven't done much other than that. I'm just going to have to invest the time...

 

[ttocs]

Okay, thanks for the info. I did have to read thru it a couple times, but I think I understand. I hadn't actually thought about running ARC on my AVR for both my main speakers along with the REL's but that also makes total sense since they will be working as a pair. Also, using REW to help mate my speakers and subs is something I had not thought of.

One thing that seems to keep coming up and I just can't avoid anymore is I'm going to have to learn REW. I did buy their mike, and load the software but I really haven't done much other than that. I'm just going to have to invest the time...

One reason for running ARC on the speakers is for initial alignment. Making sure the mic is in the same location for each speaker, and in my case, each subwoofer, helps to get the alignment set. If I make an adjustment on a ML subwoofer after running ARC on it, it's usually pretty small and for a specific reason,

What type of computer system do you have? PC or Mac?

Using a HDMI cable between computer and processor is a big help. It made the difference for me in being able to setup for running REW. I now just use a Mac mini that's always connected to the processor.

Please don't hesitate to ask me for any help you may need.

 

[BDH55]

One reason for running ARC on the speakers is for initial alignment. Making sure the mic is in the same location for each speaker, and in my case, each subwoofer, helps to get the alignment set. If I make an adjustment on a ML subwoofer after running ARC on it, it's usually pretty small and for a specific reason,

What type of computer system do you have? PC or Mac?

Using a HDMI cable between computer and processor is a big help. It made the difference for me in being able to setup for running REW. I now just use a Mac mini that's always connected to the processor.

Please don't hesitate to ask me for any help you may need.

Thx ttocs! I do most of my stuff on my Mac, but I have kept a laptop PC around for stuff like running REW. Also, I'm sure that I will have questions once I really get into this. One of the first things I can think of is this... if I run ARC on my 15's to get them working with my room, and then I run ARC on my Anthem AVP, when do I run ARC on my Illusion center channel speaker (which is also paired with a small REL sub)?

 

[Steelhead]

Hey Rich, Welcome back!!!!

Weren't you one of the original Jim Power's defenders? I still miss him although I have had a great experience with Ron in the Service Department so there's that!

I had Summit's (loved em) and a house sale in a hot market had me score a pair of 15a's from Shawn (who is fantastic to deal with) and if you decide to jump in I would easily recommend him to do business with. Had that not happened I could have and would have gladly kept the Summits making music.

Would answer your question but I have not used DSP on the 15's yet as my amps are out at Manley getting refurbed. Using my backup system now and the Fisher 500c would not handle the 15's so they are static until the Manleys are back in action.

I did buy the PBK kit and will screw around with it but out out of the box the bass on the 15a's is pretty freaking awesome.

Happy listening and welcome back.

 

[amey01]

thought of deliberately introducing some DSP into the chain, even if it's just for the bass, gives me serious pause.

Nothing against Rich (you're awesome mate, welcome back by the way) - but I find it a little more than ironic that analogue-philes love the RIAA equaliser in their systems (and all the negatives that pertain to that - including phase shifts, loss of transparency, addition of another gain stage, etc), but are frightened of more modern, far more technically competent, useful equalisers. I just don't get it.

So that's my 2c Rich......if you're worried about the DSP (and maybe you should be).........first get rid of the far more technically incompetent, 1940s-designed RIAA equaliser in your system.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Back in the 90's when the first Audio Animation digital mastering consoles were going out, the one thing that the guys with the golden ears absolutely loved was the FIR equalization which left the phase alone and gave them much better equalization control than they had ever had before.

The studios have ALL gone to FIR equalization for music since the early 90's, because it doesn't mess up the music like IIR filtering ( analog equalization does).