Service Notice for Discontinued Products

[amey01]

Most classic cars DO! get thrown away. The ones that don't are restored via their aftermarket.

True classic cars? NO WAY. I can't imagine anyone throwing away a Ferrari of any sort. High end Porsches, high end Mercs. No way. What gets thrown away is the low-end (commodity) crap.

It's just that some low-end cars take a while to be regarded as classics. Audio too - look at how many original Beatles albums were thrown away? How many Linn LP12s were thrown away in the 1980s? How many Quad and Leak valve amps were thrown away?

Likewise, how many Sony speakers are thrown away?

But when an item starts off as expensive as ML speakers, it is in the "Classic" territory immediately. Just like ARC. Just like Ferrari.

 

[Rich]

That is no different than any other brand with absolutely zero OEM support, though, it just comes from a shop with a different name.

What exactly is your point here? I am talking about the original manufacturer of the cars (Mercedes) offering parts and even restoration services for models they manufactured over fifty years ago! Can you not understand what that kind of dedication to customer service does to engender customer loyalty and solidify the reputation of the brand? At first, you just assumed outright they didn't do such a thing, and now you are trying to downplay it as if it is no big deal.

All I'm saying is that this is a company that is a lot bigger than Martin Logan that goes out of its way to provide parts and service to its legacy models . . . which are a heck of a lot more complicated than a simple speaker and a whole lot older than fifteen or twenty years. Ultimately, it all just boils down to the corporate management and how they want their brand to be perceived. Heck, look at Klipsch. Not only do they still support their legacy models . . . they still manufacture them!

 

[Joey_V]

This is definitely not a warning, it's more like a notice.

And I agree with Rich, this is not like a company going under - this is a change of policy from that which we "thought" we had an understanding with in the past. A few years ago, when I was very active on this forum, I believe it would be heresy to say that ML would ever turn their backs on their customers - but alas the day has come (or so it seems).

Now I know that this isn't exactly "turning their backs to us", but it certainly isn't making me feel valued. Though I no longer own any ML products... this type of turn of events makes me question whether this is still the same company that I bought into 3 years back.

 

[Len44]

Ultimately, it all just boils down to the corporate management and how they want their brand to be perceived.

Rich, you said a mouthful here -- and you've really hit the bullseye on this one!

I only wish -- seriously wish -- that the Martin-Logan Corporate Leadership would read this thread...and perhaps even acknowledge our concerns and seriously address them -- with either a yes or no.

Awww, heck -- what was I thinking...

 

[Horchem1972]

Customer service is not what it once was.

WHOA guys (not just you Horchem). LETS STOP BEATING THE MESSENGER.
If we keep this up, Justin and other ML folks won't visit (similar to Tonepub?). We can be ****ed and still treat each other with some sort of decorum, can't we?

First and foremost Justin is a Martin logan mouthpiece.He says one thing and then retracts it the minute the Sh## gets stirred up.Just say the truth about the panels,that Martin logan does not think there is enough profit to carry on customer service tradition.I called Martin logan to see if I could put Monolith III panels in Monolith I's.Melodie acted like it was a bother to let me speak to someone or find out.She stated this is what I thought would happen and people need to just get over it.So much for carrying on Jim Powers tradition.As Amey has stated to everyone,you can always replace a driver or woofer but the panel is a differant story.Will Martin Logan even allow someone or give them the knowledge to do aftermarket panels?? Untill we hear back I am thinking no.

 

[Hocky]

True classic cars? NO WAY. I can't imagine anyone throwing away a Ferrari of any sort. High end Porsches, high end Mercs. No way. What gets thrown away is the low-end (commodity) crap.

It's just that some low-end cars take a while to be regarded as classics. Audio too - look at how many original Beatles albums were thrown away? How many Linn LP12s were thrown away in the 1980s? How many Quad and Leak valve amps were thrown away?

Likewise, how many Sony speakers are thrown away?

But when an item starts off as expensive as ML speakers, it is in the "Classic" territory immediately. Just like ARC. Just like Ferrari.

Yes, even porsches, ferrari, and mercedes get thrown away. Every day. Just like what were once "expensive" speakers that are now old and not working. They get thrown away. Maybe a select few stick around and get restored and praised, but that is just a select few out of many.

My point is only this - I enjoy my speakers today. If they last 10+ years, all the better. If I were to keep them that long, I would have certainly felt that I had gotten my money worth. Would I pay $7k or something crazy like that to repanel them in a one-off scenario? No chance. It sucks giving up "lifetime" support, but can you really expect that to continue from many companies? It is not economically viable. Mercedes can do it? Sure.... kinda, sorta. 1 dealership. In the entire country. They will not have many parts for most cars. On their xxx billion dollar budget. No, I am not mad at ML. If there is demand for these panels, an aftermarket will pick it up.

Whining in a thread about potential future discontinuations isn't going to change anyone's opinion who can change the matter. The opinions have been expressed and those who care have read them. Let it go. Go listen to some music.

 

[Rich]

My point is only this - I enjoy my speakers today. If they last 10+ years, all the better.

For the $25,000 or so that I have invested in all my Martin Logan speakers, I darn sure expect them to last longer than ten years! And be supported by their manufacturer. But maybe that's just me.

It sucks giving up "lifetime" support, but can you really expect that to continue from many companies? It is not economically viable.

Sorry, but that is just a load of BS! It can be completely economically viable. Many companies do it. Martin Logan did it for their entire existence and Gayle never filed for bankruptcy. Martin Logan doesn't appear to be on the verge of it right now, either. Look how many new models they are putting out. I don't think they are about to go out of business for building a few legacy panels.

Mercedes can do it? Sure.... kinda, sorta. 1 dealership. In the entire country. They will not have many parts for most cars. On their xxx billion dollar budget.

First of all, it is not "one dealership." It is an entire division of the company dedicated to supporting their legacy models. They have an impressive office here in the States, as well as the main office in Germany. And they stock 40,000 parts for legacy models, as well as restoration services. You make it sound like they can afford to do this simply because they are big and therefore have a big budget. But Tim already made a very logical argument that it is a lot tougher for a large corporation to provide this kind of legacy support than it is for a smaller company. So the argument that ML doesn't have the budget for it just doesn't make sense. Especially since they have provided the support since way back when their budget was smaller than it is today.

Whining in a thread about potential future discontinuations isn't going to change anyone's opinion who can change the matter. The opinions have been expressed and those who care have read them. Let it go. Go listen to some music.

Ultimately, you are just trying to make excuses for Martin Logan's decision. And that's fine, you can continue to spend your money on ML speakers knowing you can't rely on their customer support and be happy. Many of us just feel a little differently about the direction they are obviously headed. And no, we don't have to just let it go.

 

[Hocky]

Sorry, but that is just a load of BS! It can be completely economically viable. Many companies do it. Martin Logan did it for their entire existence and Gayle never filed for bankruptcy. Martin Logan doesn't appear to be on the verge of it right now, either. Look how many new models they are putting out. I don't think they are about to go out of business for building a few legacy panels.

Have you seen their P&L? I haven't. Ever think that maybe they're branching into lower end products because they can't afford to sustain on their higher end, lower volume stuff only? None of us will likely ever know what the truth of this matter is, but the bottom line is that for a company as small as ML, it wouldn't take much to turn the lights off. Hell, the company that I work for is a 500m/year company and I know for a fact that even at our level it wouldn't take much to turn the lights off.

First of all, it is not "one dealership." It is an entire division of the company dedicated to supporting their legacy models. They have an impressive office here in the States, as well as the main office in Germany. And they stock 40,000 parts for legacy models, as well as restoration services. You make it sound like they can afford to do this simply because they are big and therefore have a big budget. But Tim already made a very logical argument that it is a lot tougher for a large corporation to provide this kind of legacy support than it is for a smaller company. So the argument that ML doesn't have the budget for it just doesn't make sense. Especially since they have provided the support since way back when their budget was smaller than it is today.

Do you think that these restoration and part stocking services are profit generating? Or maybe even money? I don't. I am betting they're all cost centers. Kind of like their F1 program - it is good for their name and they are a xxx billion dollar company so it doesn't matter to write off xxx million per year.

Ultimately, you are just trying to make excuses for Martin Logan's decision. And that's fine, you can continue to spend your money on ML speakers knowing you can't rely on their customer support and be happy. Many of us just feel a little differently about the direction they are obviously headed. And no, we don't have to just let it go.

Don't get me wrong, I am not making excuses for them or happy about the decision in any way. However, I can understand the issue and needs for such a situation from 1000x different angles. I would much rather see them cut legacy support in favor of more R&D for future products than to let their current products sit stagnant on the market for 10 years if necessary. Is this all being done in the name of greed? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. We just don't know.

 

[Rich]

Ever think that maybe they're branching into lower end products because they can't afford to sustain on their higher end, lower volume stuff only?

No, I don't think that is the reason.

. . . the bottom line is that for a company as small as ML, it wouldn't take much to turn the lights off.

And yet, Magnepan, Soundlabs, Audio Research, and all these other small high end audio companies that provide legacy support seem to be surviving. I just don't buy the argument that they have to do this to survive. Too many examples of similar companies that aren't having to do this. Often, it seems that the high end audio companies that go out of business are the ones who get bought out from the original founders and new management comes in and runs them into the ground (i.e. Apogee, Innersound, Snell, and several others).

Don't get me wrong, I am not making excuses for them or happy about the decision in any way.

Really? It sure sounds like you are when you say things like:

I enjoy my speakers today. If they last 10+ years, all the better. If I were to keep them that long, I would have certainly felt that I had gotten my money worth.
. . .
It sucks giving up "lifetime" support, but can you really expect that to continue from many companies? It is not economically viable.
. . .
No, I am not mad at ML.

That sounds like you are fine with the decision and giving them a pass with the "economic viability" excuse. But whatever.

Is this all being done in the name of greed? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. We just don't know.

A lot of people have mentioned greed in this thread. I don't think greed per se has anything to do with it. I just think it is the difference in how different types of management thinks a company should be run. ML used to be run by its founder, who was a visionary and ran the business with a certain ethic. It was since bought by an investment holding company (basically a group of private investors). They buy all kinds of companies and don't have any particular care what kinds of products they are producing or who the customers of those companies are. They are simply looking at these companies from a cost/profit balance sheet perspective and trying to leverage each investment to its maximum return. At first, it looked like maybe they were going to have a "hands off" approach with Martin Logan, and I was hopeful.

But the writing was clearly on the wall when they hired a CEO to run Martin Logan / Paradigm that had no previous experience in high end audio, but listed as one of his chief attributes on his corporate resume his experience and abilities in cutting costs in a manufacturing setting. Obviously, he is now going about doing what he is good at, and what they hired him to do. My belief is that because he doesn't really understand his market and the ramifications of some of his decisions, he is going to run the brand into the ground. ML may very well go out of business in a few years because of the decisions being made today, or they may just go completely mass market and lose their reputation as a high end speaker manufacturer. Only time will tell.

 

[Hocky]

But the writing was clearly on the wall when they hired a CEO to run Martin Logan / Paradigm that had no previous experience in high end audio, but listed as one of his chief attributes on his corporate resume his experience and abilities in cutting costs in a manufacturing setting. Obviously, he is now going about doing what he is good at, and what they hired him to do. My belief is that because he doesn't really understand his market and the ramifications of some of his decisions, he is going to run the brand into the ground. ML may very well go out of business in a few years because of the decisions being made today, or they may just go completely mass market and lose their reputation as a high end speaker manufacturer. Only time will tell.

Well, I am sure that we all hope that you're wrong here, but like you said, time will tell. Until then, I am going to go sit down and enjoy my summits.

 

[Rich]

Well, I am sure that we all hope that you're wrong here, but like you said, time will tell. Until then, I am going to go sit down and enjoy my summits.

Don't run them too hard. God forbid they should break on you.

 

[BobF]

Don't run them too hard. God forbid they should break on you.

Does this now mean the dead horse has been finally been beaten?

Bob

 

[Rich]

Does this now mean the dead horse has been finally been beaten?

Bob

Beaten, kicked, spit on, cussed at, and buried in its grave!

You may now resume your normal discussions about whether this or that home theater receiver will have sufficient power to drive Martin Logan speakers. Rock on. :rocker:

 

[Craig]

Most companies do not have the resources nor the third party parts suppliers to support legacy models. It cost resources to build and maintain current models not to mention R&D, new production, stocking replacement parts, retooling for new production, warehousing costs, staffing, etc. Etc. Expending resources for old products that do bring in profit means these resources are not available for current and forward progress.

Its common business survival to drop acquisition of parts for legacy products and in many cases its simply because the third party supply sources Dry up. Try to find replacement parts for the DVD player, camera, pontiac, software updates, television, or just about any technology item you bought 5 years ago.

Mercedes Benz, Ferrari, Porsche are beyond apples and oranges and unfair to compare them to Martin Logan at least until they too have a have a billion dollar racing program or when one of their legacy products are worth 20 million $ which is the value of a certain vintage Ferrari coupe.

I'm giving ML a break on this issue and kudos for making a difficult but wise business decision.
decision.

 

[Rich]

I'm giving ML a break on this issue and kudos for making a difficult but wise business decision.
decision.

I think you are just making excuses for them. When you manufacture a speaker that has a major component with a known limited lifespan that is between ten and twenty years, it behooves your reputation to continue to provide replacements for that component. As far as parts availability, ultimately, what are we talking about here? Two metal grills of varying shapes and sizes. That's it. They can use the same mylar and sticky tape that they use on the modern speakers. And I don't think the spars are an issue. So, in order to provide replacement panels to legacy models, all they have to do is obtain the metal grills (since they obviously don't feel like trying to recycle the old ones). Does anyone really think they can't find a supplier for these panels? They can find a supplier for their new panels with more holes, but they can't get them to manufacture some in old style? Right.

And how much of a resource draw is it really, to have someone who assembles panels for legacy speaker models to have in stock? It can be done during slack times for production on other models. And since they are charging a pretty penny for these panels, it isn't like this resource draw isn't compensated for.

You are right in that it is a business decision. But I don't think it is a business decision that is necessitated by economic reality. It is a business decision to cut costs, streamline manufacturing and increase profit margin, with the hopes that legacy customers will then choose to upgrade to modern models when their speakers die.

 

[Craig]

I lost interest when they packed up and moved out of town and I have no reason to make excuses for ML.

I'd like to see an aftermarket business start up that makes replacement panels. Some of the electronic components can be hard to find, especially the circuit boards used in the modern speakers. But there really aren't any exotic materials used to make panels and probably available from 3M. But would there be enough customers to make it worthwhile? maybe.

 

[Rich]

I lost interest when they packed up and moved out of town and I have no reason to make excuses for ML.

Fair enough. I guess what I should have said is that I didn't find the reasons you gave to be convincing. But obviously, given the responses in this thread, lots of people do seem to be willing to give them a pass on this decision.

Lots of people are hoping for the aftermarket option, but I personally don't expect that it will happen.

 

[wallacefl]

I lost interest when they packed up and moved out of town and I have no reason to make excuses for ML.

I'd like to see an aftermarket business start up that makes replacement panels. Some of the electronic components can be hard to find, especially the circuit boards used in the modern speakers. But there really aren't any exotic materials used to make panels and probably available from 3M. But would there be enough customers to make it worthwhile? maybe.

not exactly replacements...but check out...www.justrealmusic.com

 

[amey01]

Its common business survival to drop acquisition of parts for legacy products and in many cases its simply because the third party supply sources Dry up. Try to find replacement parts for the DVD player, camera, pontiac, software updates, television, or just about any technology item you bought 5 years ago.

Yes, but panels? How hard is it to source metal and plastic, then punch holes in the metal?

 

[jtwrace]

Yep, I'm really glad I sold Logans when I did. What a joke!

Anyway, I find it hard to belive that the parts are no longer available. I think it's probably more like ML doesn't want to keep an inventory of parts. Which is understandable.

Now the question is will Jim Powers be able to service the out of production speakers. If he can, he will have a thriving business IMO.

BTW-Ferraris don't get thrown out everyday due to parts shortage. ANYTHING can be made again if its been made once before. It's about time and money...

Good Luck to all of you.