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Power Cords for M/L 13a B212 Make a difference ?

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FruitloopSR

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Anyone rolling cords? Owners of these units using best pc for these. What are you using and what do your ears tell you. Dont want to try too many. Rabbit hole is to deep for me
Do they make a big move in SQ. Let me know brands.
Thanks, Mike
 

amey01

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This degenerative topic has been discussed so many times on here, you'd do well to search.

In short, if you think they'll make a difference, you'll probably hear one. If you think it's all BS, then you'll probably not hear a difference.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no point listening; and nor is there any point discussing the topic. Your mind has no doubt been made up.

If you are in the former camp, go out and spend your money.
 
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ttocs

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I'm a big believer in having the proper wire size and type in all cables. 15 Amps needs 14 gauge wire, 20 Amps needs 12 gauge wire. Now, I do actually go a little overboard on the power cords in that I use the same wire for all the amps simply because I like the wire and its thicker outer insulation.

In the past I've measured transient peaks for educational purposes to prove to myself what I needed as opposed to everything I've read and can't prove. What I learned is, it's simple electrical transmission.

Here's a photo of the guts of the amps in the Expression:
27244687350_544d7e645e_k.jpg

Here's a photo of the guts of one of my amps:
latino-guts.jpg

I don't see high priced wire in either amp. I choose to use better wire between the amps and the wall and I get it at the hardware store and use good plugs.
 

athrose

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TTOCS,

I absolutely love your photos. They speak volumes to me. Thanks for posting.
 

ttocs

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For those interested, here is the wire I use for all amps including the 13A's. This is 600V cable which has thick insulation.
IMG_5451.jpg


Here is a finished power cord. The important plug here is the IEC which has very good "grip" on the spades of the component, and these generally cost around $15 plus or minus. My outlets are Hospital Grade, and the main reason I use them is for the extremely powerful grip they have on anything plugged into them. Very difficult to plug-in, and remove.
powercable_3411-small.jpg
 
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FruitloopSR

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ttocs, Nice I could try that does not seem difficult. Is there a certain brand cable where did u get from What ends are you using.If i make em them i will see if i hear a diff. Did you try different cables. Did you solder the ends?
M.
 

ttocs

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Is there a certain brand cable where did u get from What ends are you using.If i make em them i will see if i hear a diff. Did you try different cables. Did you solder the ends?
M.
"12/3 SOOW Portable Power Cable" is how this wire type is listed on the big box home stores web sites. It's usually purchased by the foot. No specific brand.

You'll need 15A plugs which allow for thick wire, and these are available from the big three home stores. I buy the Legrand plugs for the wall outlet end, both straight and angled. The angle model let's you choose which direction the wire comes out.
legrand-plug-angled.jpg

For the amp end of the cord, the connectors I've purchased in the past are no longer available on the jungle site, but there's other offerings out there. The main concept I look for is a connector with plenty of "bite" for very positive connection. Also, FWIW, the spade clamps are made of copper, I doubt this has much effect, but there ya go.

The wires are inserted into screw clamp terminals, so no soldering.

I wouldn't expect any change in sound by changing the power cords from those shipped with the Expressions. The woofer amps just don't seem to draw a lot of current. The ONLY reasons I changed mine is to make them the length I wanted, and that I like how thick the insulation is - with the hopes that "if" there is any chance to reduce spurious electrical interference of any kind to/from other wires, so be it.

I've only experienced one situation where replacing the power cord resulted in an audible difference. I purchased a demo amp which required a 15 Amp outlet and was supposed to come with a 15 Amp cord. The salesman gave me the wrong cord which was rated at 10 Amps. At high volume there was some harshness that I was never able to overcome. Once I looked at the wire gauge of the cord, then investigated what I should have been given, I then made my own properly sized cord. The sound difference was immediately apparent and repeatable to anyone who heard it. BUT, it is simply that current was being choked by the wrong cord. Once the amp was given all the juice it wanted it was happy, and it ran cooler (don't really understand why, but I'm not complaining).

The way I figure it, if I have 12 gauge wire in the wall I want to match that all the way to the amp. That way at least I'm not choking off anything. If the really quick transients want it, they can get it.

edit: I just did a quick test to measure current draw and the highest reading was under 1.7 Amps @ 126 Volts, so around 215 Watts @ 1ms Peak. So this is very far from high current.
 
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twich54

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The important plug here is the IEC which has very good "grip" on the spades of the component, and these generally cost around $15 plus or minus. My outlets are Hospital Grade, and the main reason I use them is for the extremely powerful grip they have on anything plugged into them. Very difficult to plug-in, and remove.
You nailed it IMO, proper gauge wire combined with solid connections are first and foremost. Neither of which requires foolish amounts of $$
 

bikerneil

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Totally agree, and I use the same approach. It slays me when someone spends $5K on a power cable plugged in to the wall that has 12 or 14 gauge Romex from Home Depot. Even worse yet, is the belief that those $5K power cables somehow get better after their break-in period! American marketing at it's very finest.
 

RDC

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Solid advice. The only thing I can add is that if you want it to look great (instead of dull black or some horrid colour the cable has) you can spent a few bucks on some braided sleeves (example) and heat sleeve tubing (example) to make it look more interesting. Very easy to fit, can be undone when needed and with the right colour combination makes your cables look fantastic.
 

JLasher22443

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Yes I know I may be opening up a huge can of worms but I need to bring up this subject; again.

So here is my take on this; and this is only coming from someone who actually heard a change. Awhile back I commented on another thread that I was hearing noise and bumps in power loads when turning on my record cleaning machine in my Home Theater. To alleviate this I decided to run an entirely new circuit from the electrical panel to my HT. I used 12 gauge wire and a hospital grade receptacle. All I was trying to accomplish was getting rid of the overuse of one circuit already in the room.

After doing so the noise went away and the bass in my room was now noticeably loader, cleaner, and deeper in punch. So much I actually felt it more in the floor below my feet and my wife said it was rattling glasses in the kitchen. Can't tell you why I heard and felt the difference; I just did. To think it was just power coming from a receptacle that was changed. Only thing changed was going from a 14 gauge 15 amp circuit already in the house to a new dedicated 12 gauge 20 amp circuit. Now why is that?

This in turn started me down the rabbit hole of power and cords for the past month. Now I'm not telling you to go out and buy new cords or change anything in your system. But I am going to tell you it made me rethink my approach for my system.

So I purchased a few power cords from Shawn at Da Vinci and I'm going to see if I notice a difference for myself. If changing the wire from 14 gauge to 12 gauge on the 50 foot run in my house made a big change; why wouldn't a 3 foot section of power cord do the same? I don't know; but I'm going to find out. Worse case I'm out a few $100 bucks. Hell; Shawn will probably even take them back if I don't hear a difference. LOL

My plan is to actually setup my system and do a blind test with a buddy of mine this weekend. I'm going to switch out power cords to the 15A's, the MC452, and even the Panamax's to see if we can hear a difference. Plan is to do this blindly so I don't know the difference with my buddy's help. He will do a swap of just one piece of equipment at a time and then all of them at the same time. Also I plan to have the volume set at the same level for all tests and I will be using an SPL Meter to see if it picks up a change I can't hear.

Also I never listened to JonFo here on this site either when he continuously told me that adding room treatments to my room would massively change the sound of my system. But when I finally pulled the trigger and spent money on quality room treatments for my room it made a difference; a huge difference. I know its not the same but I'm only stating this because I was being closed minded and not wanting to try something new. So I'm going to give this power thing a try now.

And another question I have; why does Martin Logan state this in the manual I got with my 15A's.

"Step 3: Power Connection (AC) (see warning) Use the best power cords you can. Higher quality power cords, available from your specialty dealer, are recommended and will give you superior performance."

If this is not true can't they be held liable? LOL I mean If I was very wealthy and got these speakers and purchased some crazy expensive Nordost Odin 2 and heard no difference can't I sue for false advertising? LOL Obviously I'd have to be very wealthy to sue a company like Martin Logan but you get my point. LOL

Also I've been researching a lot on Power Regenerators over power strips and conditioners. Looking at companies like PS Audio and Torus Power. Haven't made a huge investment yet because I'm still very skeptical. We will see after this weekends blind testing. I'm willing to bet that just taking the Panamax out of the equation will make a difference in sound. Now whether or not its a quality change for the good or for the bad I don't know. But I'll find out. I think it's going to be fun. LOL
 

ttocs

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Only thing changed was going from a 14 gauge 15 amp circuit already in the house to a new dedicated 12 gauge 20 amp circuit. Now why is that?
Because whatever was on that circuit wasn't getting the amperage it was capable of actually using.

If changing the wire from 14 gauge to 12 gauge on the 50 foot run in my house made a big change; why wouldn't a 3 foot section of power cord do the same?
It will, if that power cord is insufficiently sized to provide the amperage needed by the component.

I have only experienced sonic improvements after bottlenecks have been eliminated. As long as there is more than enough power available (Amperage) and a large enough delivery system (Wire Gauge) then there is nothing to improve. But, if there is a inadequate link in the chain, and that link is upgraded, then there will be an audible difference.

Think of it this way, if you've ever experienced using a power tool connected with an extension cord and the extension cord heated up, this is proof that the extension cord is not providing enough energy. This is an example of continuous insufficiency. With audio components this possible insufficiency can be for extremely short periods of time, milliseconds, so the cord won't ever heat up, but this can be heard as lacking dynamics and causing distortion.
 

twich54

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Jason, if you had a 50' run you should have gone to 10 gauge IMO. My 2 circuits (20 amp) that feed my two channel rig are both runs of less than 30' and I use 10 gauge Romex.
 

JLasher22443

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50' may be a stretch. I'd need to check the footage on the new roll of cable to be exact. I have one 20 amp feed to one Panamax and one 20 amp feed to the other. Then the two channel rack is off of one of the original 15 amp circuits in the room with the Furman. RCM, HT Seating, and Lighting which include Philips Hue are off of the other 15 amp circuit originally in the room.

There are a total of 2 = 20 amp 12 Gauge single runs and 2 = 15 amp 14 gauge single runs in my room. I thought that was an overkill. Maybe not?

I just got the Nordost in from Shawn. Can't wait to mess with these this weekend.

 

amey01

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If changing the wire from 14 gauge to 12 gauge on the 50 foot run in my house made a big change; why wouldn't a 3 foot section of power cord do the same?
You would do well to also check the gauge on the other side of the receptacle (inside the speaker) too.


twitch54 said:
My 2 circuits (20 amp) that feed my two channel rig are both runs of less than 30' and I use 10 gauge Romex.
And all this talk about current>amps makes me wonder what difference there may be between:
  • 110v in Japan
  • 120v in US
  • 230v in Europe
  • 240v in Australia

So the amperage requirement in Australia is half that of the USA - does that mean we get better sound quality here without even trying?
 
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