Planning a new system -- Is the kid right?

[New2ML]

I am building a new house, and plan to install a new AV system from the ground up. The stuff I now own will become donations to the kids, or relegated to some rarely used location.

I'll wire some in-wall or in-ceiling speakers in a variety of spots in the house, for background music. I'll have a dedicated movie room, but won't be finishing that quite yet.

The room I am most interested in at the moment is a family room. One wall of glass sliding doors. Fireplace. Built-in bookcases. 10 ft. ceilings, and hardwood floors with rugs. And of course a flat screen TV. This will be an "all-purpose" room, and needs an all purpose AV system, driving both music as well as TV / movies. The room is about 17' x 23', and one complicating factor is that the TV placement has to go into a corner.

It has become very hard to shop for good stereo gear, and it is getting worse with each passing year. The quality shops where you can hear your choices, and get solid advice from knowledgeable sales staff have folded.

Let me be clear that I love every ML speaker I have heard, but have not heard them all. I can't find a place with ML in-wall speakers I can hear.

The kid at the local Best Buy was taking a position that if music was my main interest, then what I was going to be most happy with was a ML floorstanding speaker. But if movies were going to be my main interest, go with some other type of speaker.

His other point was the ML in-wall speakers were designed for movies, and not for music. I really don't understand why a good stereo speaker might not be a good movie speaker.

Does he have a point, or is he off-base?

My second issue is that in a setting such as this, you need speakers that sound "good" in broad areas of the room, even if you have them placed to optimize a sweet spot in a favorite chair. ML's have a reputation for having a very narrow sweet spot, but does that remain true for the more recent models? Including the in-wall models?

The budget is flexible. Not unlimited, but I want to do this right. Looking for opinions from the knowledgeable folks here.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rich]

The kid at the local Best Buy was taking a position that if music was my main interest, then what I was going to be most happy with was a ML floorstanding speaker. But if movies were going to be my main interest, go with some other type of speaker.

His other point was the ML in-wall speakers were designed for movies, and not for music. I really don't understand why a good stereo speaker might not be a good movie speaker.

Does he have a point, or is he off-base?

Speakers are designed to reproduce sound. It doesn't matter if that sound is coming from music or a movie. Chances are anyone that works at Best Buy doesn't have the education, experience, or monetary means to understand squat about high end audio equipment. Therefore, you should take their opinions with a few grains of salt.

ML floorstanding speakers, such as the Purity, Source, Vista, Vantage, Spire and Summit, all reproduce music and movies exceedingly well. Many of us here on this forum have multipurpose music listening and home theater rooms with tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear, and are quite happy using our ML speakers for both music and movies.

The ML wall mounted speakers are decent for surround channels, but would probably be found lacking for center or main channel speakers, in my opinion.

My second issue is that in a setting such as this, you need speakers that sound "good" in broad areas of the room, even if you have them placed to optimize a sweet spot in a favorite chair. ML's have a reputation for having a very narrow sweet spot, but does that remain true for the more recent models? Including the in-wall models?

The ML floorstanding speakers do have a small sweetspot. They still sound "good" in broad areas of the room. But they only sound incredible in the sweet spot. The in-wall models probably don't have this limitation, but I can't say for sure.

 

[DaVinci Media]

Martin Logan In Walls are Great for Music

The best buy kid is wrong, surprise, surprise. I a room such as yours where you cant have a large floor standing speaker 4 feet out into the room I have no problem at all recommending any of the Martin Logan inwalls. Infact I will put the Passages up against any floor standing speaker in the same price range. We use them a lot, especially in bedrooms where floorstanding speakers are usually never an option, but we have even used them in multiple high end dedicated home theaters with a very high wow factor. If you were in my area you could come and hear them too!

 

[New2ML]

Wow. That is great to hear.

Care to give your personal comparison / review of the Passage vs. the Voyage?

 

[attyonline]

Actually the kid is not wrong. If you primarily watch movies, there are better options for a theater than ML. Magnolia sells Klipsch speakers which are much more efficient and dynamic than ML for substantially less money. Given that BB/Magnolia only sells receivers and not high power amps, the Klipsch gives you much better dynamics than the ML with the available receivers they sell. I prefer the ML sound for my music and would not be happy with the Klipsch for critical music listening, but I suggest that you hear a properly set up home theater with Klipsch speakers. They easily best all but the most expensive ML speakers on action movie sound tracks, and do so with less expensive amplification.

 

[Ron]

All movies have music in the backround. I enjoy the ML for home theater.

 

[avtroll]

I agree best buy kid was a moron. I love all of the Martin logan in-walls. You just dont get the same amount of base as a floor stander. "ouch" Someone said klipsch and my ears started to bleed just thinking about them

Not mocking you attyonline, to each there own. Thats the beautiful thing about this business, all speaker company's sound different. There is no right or wrong, its all about personal preference / room design, placement etc. etc.

To answer your question, the passage is a great speaker, the voyage blows it away. If your putting a speaker in the wall, once its there, its there, without painting and patching if you decide to change. I would go with the voyage, fantastic speaker. Now would vista's sound better, for just a little bit more money? Yes they would, but now you have room placement issues. And you did hit it on the head, the floor standers do beam a bit more, where Ribbons have a 180 degree dispersion. (as used in the passage and voyage)

Hope that makes sence

"hifi for life"

 

[DrJRapp]

Actually the kid is not wrong. If you primarily watch movies, there are better options for a theater than ML. Magnolia sells Klipsch speakers which are much more efficient and dynamic than ML for substantially less money. Given that BB/Magnolia only sells receivers and not high power amps, the Klipsch gives you much better dynamics than the ML with the available receivers they sell. I prefer the ML sound for my music and would not be happy with the Klipsch for critical music listening, but I suggest that you hear a properly set up home theater with Klipsch speakers. They easily best all but the most expensive ML speakers on action movie sound tracks, and do so with less expensive amplification.

I wholeheartedly agree. Last year I sold off my Theater i and moved my Summits to a dedicated 2 channel room. I replaced all that stuff with a pair of Klipsch mains and a Klipsch center to add to my alread Klipsch surrounds and rears. My theater system was not underpowered with 350 wpc from an Aragon amp., yet the sweet sounding MLs could not grab you and hold you dynamically like the Klipsch can. The reason a good music speaker can't do well as a HT designed speaker in a theater application is simple...soundfield. Good music speakers are designed to create as large and well focused soundfield (soundstage) as possible, whereas the soundstage in a theater system is created by the media and pre-pro and depends on a point source soundfield to recreate what the producer intended from the film. IMHO The Summits were a waste in the theater room but are the stars of my family room, yet the Klipsch which are designed to deliver a point source are the right speakers for theater only apps.

 

[tonepub]

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[Audiophiliac]

If I were building a dedicated theater room, I would use something like the Klipsch THX, JBL (commercial/pro), Snell THX, or the B&W CT line.

While Martin Logan, and other home hi-fi speakers might sound superb on movie soundtracks, they werent necessarily designed with the dynamics, volume levels, and dispersion characteristics normally recommended for cinema applications. This is not a blanket statement or a generalization on ML speakers. It is also simply my opinion.

 

[MiTT]

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Yep, I'm with you Jeff. Build a great sounding music setup and movies will be very well rendered.

In my mind a music only system is much more demanding than an A/V system, It doesn't have the added clue that Video contributes, thus must be more encompassing. Get the music right and video will be served as well.

Anyone who isn't getting good dynamic performance out of their ML system has bigger issues than the speakers,

 

[JonFo]

It’s all about the room, and just as importantly, the speaker to room interface.

If you take any large dipole line array speaker set and plop them into a highly reflective room it will not resolve imaging well, its frequency response will be all over the place, and likely will suffer from serious dynamic issues due to room modes and high-frequency modal ringing (which seriously impacts perception of dynamics).

A small (relatively speaking) monopole, or a monopole with waveguides (like the Klipsh) will not engage as many mid and high-frequency room modes and reflections, therefore will image better for dialog and other positional soundtrack elements.


So whether ML or other style of dipole (e.g. maggies), they bring with them unique positioning and room treatment challenges. Especially in the mids and highs.
All speakers have the same challenges in the mid-bass and bass when it comes to positioning and room interaction.


So in its simplest form, a small HT might be better off with simple monopoles that will not overpower the room.

However, that would be missing out on one the greatest HT and surround music setups around.

ML’s make stunningly good multichanel setups, if the room interface is properly considered and handled.

In my custom room designed just for my ML set, and now with proper room treatments, this is the best mutlichannel music, 2ch music or movie soundtrack reproduction system I’ve ever heard.

Oh, and no lack of dynamics, this system can play louder than you can stand at sub 1% THD. Very few dynamic tweeters/midranges can deliver that. Only large arrays of dynamic drivers can compete on low-distortion/high-SPL with a well configured ML setup.

So big line arrays, including electrostats, can do movies, and do them incredibly well; its just that they all require proper room design and configuration.

 

[Cosmos]

The wonder of it all

What puzzles me the most about this thread, is how individuals with common interests can be so far apart in their views.

I completely understand the dynamics presented by more efficient speakers. However, the day that I felt I couldn't get the right sound from my gear, whether it was coming from A/V or 2 channel, would be the day I'd also seriously question the idea of spending big money on it. Good realistic sound is good realistic sound. I don't want a theater setup where a boom is over exaggerated. I want a voice to have the same characteristics it has from 2 channel audio.. clear, clean and natural. There are many people that want boom and sizzle.. just look how many JBL L100s were sold.. I am not in that camp.. That is MY opinion.

But either camp is OK if that is what the buyer wants. Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder to hear.. actually listen to.. a sound system before you drag it home. Good luck listening to anything at Best Buy at levels less than 115db. There is just way too much competing sound. The kid at Best Buy may not be "wrong" or a "moron", but I sure don't agree with him.. and it's all good..

The reality, after deciphering all the opinions, is that the only opinion that matters is of the buyer and their family/guests. Good luck formulating your opinion. Shop around until you have. It's a fair chunk of money and something you want to be happy with for years. Don't be tempted by THE DARK SIDE!

 

[Rich]

Good music speakers are designed to create as large and well focused soundfield (soundstage) as possible, whereas the soundstage in a theater system is created by the media and pre-pro and depends on a point source soundfield to recreate what the producer intended from the film.

This is patently false. All speakers are designed to render a time-aligned, phase-coherent audio signal of a certain frequency bandwidth.

The soundstage and imaging of two channel reproduction is created by the recording and mixing engineers, not by the speakers. Same goes for multichannel. The speakers simply transpose the signal that the audio engineers created. For example, a mono recording has as much depth and detail as a stereo recording, it just doesn't have the 3-dimensionality of soundstage and imaging that a stereo recording has (even when played on your "stereo" system. Because it wasn't mixed for that.

Neither point source speakers nor electrostats are inherently "better" for music or home theater. Both have advantages and disadvantages for each application and it is a personal choice as to which you prefer.

 

[DrJRapp]

This is patently false. All speakers are designed to render a time-aligned, phase-coherent audio signal of a certain frequency bandwidth.

Oh really?

 

[Rich]

Oh really?

I didn't say they achieved it; I said they are designed to achieve it. My main point being that it isn't the design of the speakers that gives the effect of 5.1 surround sound or of 2.0 stereo sound. It is in the mixing and engineering of the recording. Any decent speaker is capable of reproducing these effects in either type of system.

 

[New2ML]

Does anyone have a good free pic hosting recommendation? The one I've been trying to use simply does not work.

The point that many have made about the room, speaker placement, etc. is obviously a key factor. I KNOW the room I am most interested in is far from optimal. I'd like to post a pic of the room.

I do have a room I'll later make into a full-blow HT room. But that comes later. The HT room has much more opportunity by its shape and other characteristics. The room I am interested has its own challenges.

Pic hosting site recommendations?

 

[MotorToad]

If the picture meets the requirements of the site for size, you can attach it to a post ("manage attachments" under the main panel where you type your post in). If it is too large, you can resize it with the "image resizer" from here.

Rich and I have respectfully expressed differing opinions on the merits of home theater elsewhere. But I'll give my take on a different aspect of it here.

I don't have nearly as much invested in my system as most here, but it is my auditory baby. I couldn't stand for it to be used to reproduce Oprah, MTV, or most anything else that comes from a TV, and it'd drive me up the stinking wall if someone wandered off with the TV on and my expensive space heater of an amplifier and electrostatic dustbusters churning out noises at no one, or fell asleep and left it running all night unnecessarily. I'd like to use my MLs for movies, sure, but then you're either using them all the time for TV, or you need an alternative sound source; which means switching between them, having twice as much stuff in the room, and teaching everyone in the house how to use all these components and remotes. Too much of a pain, IMHO.

There aren't many, if any, receivers available that can power our tall and cantankerous babies sufficiently, which means separate amps and processors. I'd be consumed with guilt over the amount of electricity being consumed for watching television. And for the money invested in all these components.

Certainly MartinLogan feels their speakers are good for home theater or they probably wouldn't be making center channel and in-wall speakers, and many people on this board have fabulous systems. But in my opinion home theater is beneath the station of my speakers. I prefer an uncompromised two-channel audio system for my music, and whatever boxes that aren't bose for TV. For a couple or few thousand dollars you could walk out of McSpeakerTown with an entire system that will amaze most of your friends (and probably not hurt your ears), be simple to set up, won't need to stand 1/3 of the way into the living room, and will take care of all your video switching and volume with one remote (damn I hate having to switch video and audio sources separately). Basing a system around Vistas or Vantages could get to be 15 or 20 large depending on what you use for amplification.

Anyway, that's just my take on it. I'm not saying a huge ML surround system is a bad idea if that's what is important to you, it's just not how I prioritize my sound. My music means a lot to me, and home theater is just... sounds that match the image.

 

[New2ML]

OK ... help me to break down this system problem into bite sized pieces.

The attached jpg is a screen shot showing the room, draw in one of the PC archetect programs, with two views of the room. The room is a family room, which as I said in the original post is more of an "all purpose" room than one dedicated to music / HT. There is a separate room I'll outfit for that purpose later. But, I do want to do this room well.

The room is a decent size ... about 17 x 23. You can see I've shown a TV in two places ... one in a built-in bookcase, and another on a wall. The bookcase is a preferred location for a lot of reasons.

There isn't an obvious way to handle speakers. Traffic flow makes it impractical to locate speakers well into the room. I have been considering in-walls. I will have a dedicated electronic closet just around the corner, so amp / receiver space isn't an issue.

Where would you locate speakers?

 

[Burke]

You are probably not going to be able to engineer great audiophile sound in this room. But I do not think that is you intention either. For very good sound you could put a set of ML Sources along side the tv, close to the wall. A pair of acoustic panels on the wall directly behind the speakers will help a lot (HF Minitraps from RealTraps would be my suggestion.) Get a Motif or Matinee for the center, I leave the surrounds up to you.

If you could find a set of Script i, to use as left/right and surrounds you would be golden but they are getting hard to find.

just my $0.02.

--burke