Not a glowing report

[JohnA]

Floyd is one of the world experts on acoustics



The whole presentation is worth watching, but at 1:03:40 he throws a direct dig at a Martin Logan speaker.
What model could he be alluding at?

 

[amey01]

It may not be an ML….there are other hybrid electro stats!

 

[spkrdctr]

Hybrid electrostats have their own set of problems. We all take our preferred speakers with their own special issues. Nothing is perfect. Sad but true!

 

[sleepysurf]

Dipole electrostatic speakers typically measure poorly, vs. point source designs, in Harman's "Spinarama" measurements, which Floyd Toole championed. However, those of us who own them, feel their overall musicality and detail far outweighs their poorer off-axis measurements.

Here's an excerpt from John Atkinson's measurements and comments in the S'Phile review of the ML Renaissance 15A, noting the superb frequency response (with ARC enabled) for their newest hybrid models... MartinLogan Masterpiece Renaissance ESL 15A loudspeaker Measurements

You can easily see the effects of ARC; in fact, with ARC applied, this is one of the flattest spatially averaged in-room responses I have measured in 27 years of performing this test. Yes, this excellent behavior was partly due to JI's superbly proportioned room—but if you disregard the narrow peak just above 100Hz and the slight lack of energy between 150 and 250Hz, the response falls within ±2dB limits from 20Hz to 10kHz. Wow! (What I haven't shown is how closely the left and right speakers matched at the listening position: within 1dB from 100Hz to 20kHz!)

 

[amey01]

Dipole electrostatic speakers typically measure poorly, vs. point source designs, in Harman's "Spinarama" measurements, which Floyd Toole championed. However, those of us who own them, feel their overall musicality and detail far outweighs their poorer off-axis measurements.

Here's an excerpt from John Atkinson's measurements and comments in the S'Phile review of the ML Renaissance 15A, noting the superb frequency response (with ARC enabled) for their newest hybrid models... MartinLogan Masterpiece Renaissance ESL 15A loudspeaker Measurements

ARC is cheating though. It’s only and whole purpose is to smooth in room frequency response!

 

[amey01]

Hybrid electrostats have their own set of problems. We all take our preferred speakers with their own special issues. Nothing is perfect. Sad but true!

Yes!

 

[ttocs]

ARC is cheating though. It’s only and whole purpose is to smooth in room frequency response!

. . . up to 300Hz.

 

[18000rpm]

The whole presentation is worth watching, but at 1:03:40 he throws a direct dig at a Martin Logan speaker.
What model could he be alluding at?

Almost 100% sure he is referring to the Summits, which had an original MSRP of $10,995 (ie. $11,000 in his presentation). He also said it had a woofer below and an electrostatic panel above and looks "cool" and "sexy", "good industrial design".

 

[torchlake99]

What is the $1800 speaker he is praising?
thanks

 

[Stefan_DR3]

. . . up to 300Hz.

And essential in most rooms!

 

[spkrdctr]

ARC is cheating though. It’s only and whole purpose is to smooth in room frequency response!

That's the kind of cheating that we all need! The future is clearly heading to powered speakers. I'd say in 15 years they will be a large part of the market. Two channel systems are going to go the way of the Model T Ford. Science and technology is passing them by. That's a good thing though. Science moves things forward.

 

[BDH55]

Two channel systems are going to go the way of the Model T Ford. Science and technology is passing them by. That's a good thing though. Science moves things forward.

I think it was just yesterday that I received an audio/video print catalog and one of their 'experts' was talking up the benefits (and IIRC, 'resurgence') of two channel audio (sorry, it went out with the recycle bin so I can't quote it). While I love my two channel rig and continue to invest in it... I do think you are 100% correct...

 

[amey01]

That's the kind of cheating that we all need! The future is clearly heading to powered speakers. I'd say in 15 years they will be a large part of the market. Two channel systems are going to go the way of the Model T Ford. Science and technology is passing them by. That's a good thing though. Science moves things forward.

You're not wrong. But then the whole point of the thread is redundant. If you put room correction on every speaker, they'll all give the same frequency response.

 

[spkrdctr]

It will narrow down the gap between really good speakers and great speakers. But there will still be a LOT of junk made at all price ranges. Audio is a junk pickers dream! Or, it could be a high end pickers dream. Lots of product to play with across the price spectrum. Expensive hobby too!

 

[ttocs]

Measuring frequency response is one thing, dynamics is another.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Measuring frequency response is one thing, dynamics is another.

This is one reason why Klipsch are always seem to get the nod for sounding LIVE. 98 - 99 dBA for some of them at one watt allows them to react with a lot of impact. The PA like horn design may add to the live sound as well. I've heard the imaging isn't the greatest for their horn speakers, but that is total hearsay. I think I listened to a pair 35 years ago and I don't remember anything about the pair I heard.

While my ML's can play with authority and much louder than I need, I don't think many people consider them a very dynamic speaker.

 

[JonFo]

While my ML's can play with authority and much louder than I need, I don't think many people consider them a very dynamic speaker.

You need to come hear my rig then. Dynamics out the wazoo here.

But there is nothing stock in my system, and those MBM units are a huuuuge part of the dynamics story.

It's all about system and room acoustics balance. ESL just makes that much harder to achieve, but the rewards are worth it.

 

[JonFo]

What model could he be alluding at?

Quite sure it was the Sumit.

Bt any dipole speaker, ESL, planar magnetic, row of cones, etc. would fare poorly on the spinorama.
That device is designed for monopole speakers and is a great tool, but like any tool, can be miss-applied.

 

[spkrdctr]

This is one reason why Klipsch are always seem to get the nod for sounding LIVE. 98 - 99 dBA for some of them at one watt allows them to react with a lot of impact. The PA like horn design may add to the live sound as well. I've heard the imaging isn't the greatest for their horn speakers, but that is total hearsay. I think I listened to a pair 35 years ago and I don't remember anything about the pair I heard.

While my ML's can play with authority and much louder than I need, I don't think many people consider them a very dynamic speaker.

I had Klipsch for years before my ML speakers. I did NOT own outdated old vintage (no tech) designs that everyone seems to gravitate too and then complain about the sound. The newer stuff sounds fantastic as the single horn tweeter really makes them sound live in your room. They are fantastic sounding speakers for listening to music. They have fantastic everything. But, I had the ML itch to try something new. In stores we had them side by side and I could not tell the difference in the speakers. I bought ML just because I had the Klipsch for 15 years and was looking for something different. Many high end speaker brands I listened to sounded terrible compared to Klipsch and the MLs. I even put them up against $12,000 a pair Legacy speakers and I liked both the ML and Klipsch better. It drives me nuts that people buy ancient old design Klipsch and talk trash. The newer stuff is so much better. Your brain will make you "think" it is almost a live performance. Especially on horns and wood instruments. Downright amazing. But, now everything has changed with room EQing and such. The future is really going to go to the mid range speakers when all set up right will blow away any un-setup high end speakers. Things just keep changing and science moves us forward.

 

[spkrdctr]

You need to come hear my rig then. Dynamics out the wazoo here.

But there is nothing stock in my system, and those MBM units are a huuuuge part of the dynamics story.

It's all about system and room acoustics balance. ESL just makes that much harder to achieve, but the rewards are worth it.

I think it is fair to say your system is a 1% amazing custom system that not much could compare to it. It is an end game system!