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RCHeliGuy

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If I was to setup a higher end Media room setup, I would definitely give Klipsch a look. As it is I'm still happy with my Definitive speakers and both massive and powerful SVS Subwoofer. I had no idea what bass was possible before that subwoofer. The first time it had the walls shaking in my media room I was in total awe. They also sound very musical when I'm playing Live performance BD's.
 

RCHeliGuy

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You need to come hear my rig then. Dynamics out the wazoo here.

But there is nothing stock in my system, and those MBM units are a huuuuge part of the dynamics story.

It's all about system and room acoustics balance. ESL just makes that much harder to achieve, but the rewards are worth it.
I'm not complaining about my dynamics. I'm just saying I've not heard anyone ever call an electrostatic speaker very dynamic. I've got about 600W per channel going into my panels and my woofers are of course built in Class D from ML.
 

rpokuls

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Floyd Toole also makes the comment that electrostats aren't fast, low mass, and accurate. I thought that it was pretty much
beyond dispute that stats are low mass compared to cones.

Also, it has always been known that the sweet spot for ESLs is small. It's something we learn to live with. So he's not really saying anything new there.


I do find his comments about all those resonance concerning though.
 

roberto

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Floyd Toole also makes the comment that electrostats aren't fast, low mass, and accurate. I thought that it was pretty much
beyond dispute that stats are low mass compared to cones.

Also, it has always been known that the sweet spot for ESLs is small. It's something we learn to live with. So he's not really saying anything new there.


I do find his comments about all those resonance concerning though.
The diaphragm used on ML speakers weights less than the air that it moves. Pretty heavy it is!
Happy listening!
 

Len44

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I understand he currently works for Harman, which does not have any electrostatic speakers in their portfolio. There are times when it is a good idea to "consider the source" of information provided
 

RCHeliGuy

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I understand he currently works for Harman, which does not have any electrostatic speakers in their portfolio. There are times when it is a good idea to "consider the source" of information provided
That seems overly simplistic. How many electrostatic manufacturers are there? STAX has headphones, Magneplan uses ribbons.
 
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rpokuls

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Roberto,
Floyd Toole has a very good reputation. But it seems that he is not very knowledgeable about ESL. Everything that I have read about ESL
always talks about speed, accuracy, and very low mass membranes as outstanding/unique qualities. He completely dismisses this.
Strange.
 

Len44

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Just trying to figure out why he tossed in this "throwaway" comment. In context, it seemed oddly placed, as if he alone had suddenly discovered this piece of knowledge and he was the only one in the know, and he was seeking to appear uniquely clever.
 

rpokuls

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Len44,

Agree. It had nothing to do with what he was talking about which was flatness of frequency response. And his observation that
ESLs are more sensitive to listener location than conventional speakers is nothing new.

I am curious as to where all those resonances came from however. Unlike dynamic cones, electrostatics have no enclosure, no cones that could resonate, etc.
 

Heyfey

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Howdy,

There has been at least one post about this in the past:

Taming resonances in the Odyssey | MartinLogan Owners (MLO)

I think the resonances are primarily from cabinet vibrations caused by the bass drivers in the same cabinet structure. I have Odysseys and I definitely can feel the MDF panels that support the stats vibrate in synch with low notes. I've thought about, but haven't yet, pulled the trigger on the granite panel project described in the post (it would give my wife one more reason to question my sanity).
 

Gordon Gray

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That seems overly simplistic. How many electrostatic manufacturers are there? STAX has headphones, Magneplan uses ribbons.
Quite a few. Speakers: ML, JansZen, Sound Labs, Sanders, Quad, King Sound and Muraudio. Headphones: Stax, Hi Fi Man, Mitchell and Johnson, Shure, Koss and MrSpeakers.
 
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JonFo

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Headphones: Stax, Hi Fi Man, Mitchell and Johnson, Shure, Koss and MrSpeakers.
Good lists Gordon, and I can expand on the headphone list with King Sound who is also the OEM for the Monoprice Monolith ESL headphone (I have a set, as I love the name ;) ).

Additionally, there is Warwick Audio with their Aperio ESL headphone / Amp system: APERIO - Warwick Acoustics

We discussed the still-born sub-brand (Sonoma) they originally used in this thread: Sonoma Audio Electrostatic headphones
 

JonFo

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I wonder if that is the reason that ML changed the panel support design in the Masterpiece series quite significantly from the previous one. My ESL13a supports are quite different from the Montis which I owned previously.
Correct, the Gen1 panel mounts allowed for the panel itself to develop resonances at lower frequencies. One of the reasons to not cross them over too low; a >300hz XO removes stuff that energizes said resonances in the large Monolith panels.
The 'AirFrame' in Gen2 also provides a stronger mechanical grip while also being less resonant itself vs big wooden struts.

I've toyed with the idea of creating new aluminum frames for the front three speakers as part of a new screen frame to hold all three behind a new larger AT screen. I'd build matching bass line arrays for the Monoliths as well. Bolt all that to the floor and front wall, and bye-bye resonances.
 

Robert D

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Good lists Gordon, and I can expand on the headphone list with King Sound who is also the OEM for the Monoprice Monolith ESL headphone (I have a set, as I love the name ;) ).

Additionally, there is Warwick Audio with their Aperio ESL headphone / Amp system: APERIO - Warwick Acoustics

We discussed the still-born sub-brand (Sonoma) they originally used in this thread: Sonoma Audio Electrostatic headphones
What's your opinion on Monoprice? I'm thinking if I ever build a new home theater that I will pick up a couple of their 5 channel amps to power all of the speakers except for my Prodigies.

The reviews on their site are good, but don't know how much to trust. Think I saw some YouTube reviews that were also good.
 

spkrdctr

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What's your opinion on Monoprice? I'm thinking if I ever build a new home theater that I will pick up a couple of their 5 channel amps to power all of the speakers except for my Prodigies.

The reviews on their site are good, but don't know how much to trust. Think I saw some YouTube reviews that were also good.
Monoprice is good stuff. If they have something you want, get it! Remember, a LOT and I mean a LOT of brand differences and pricing is 100% marketing. Many times' when you look under the hood, or case in this instance, you find many amps are almost identical. I would never spend a lot of money on an amp if you can get the same power and features (whatever they may be) for less money. High end amps are kind of like high end speaker wire. More marketing than actual technical performance. Remember the Big Three, 1- Speaker placement and toe in or out, 2- Room Eq and 3- room treatments will give you huge massive benefits compared to any amp, pre-amp, wires, interconnects etc. But it is a lot harder to do the big three than just running out and buying the latest new piece of the same old gear hoping that it will create magic in a system. Gee? How did I get so off track? I must be getting senile!

Jonfo has good advice as he is 100% custom and scientific in his home system. It is crazy good.
 

Robert D

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Monoprice is good stuff. If they have something you want, get it! Remember, a LOT and I mean a LOT of brand differences and pricing is 100% marketing. Many times' when you look under the hood, or case in this instance, you find many amps are almost identical. I would never spend a lot of money on an amp if you can get the same power and features (whatever they may be) for less money. High end amps are kind of like high end speaker wire. More marketing than actual technical performance. Remember the Big Three, 1- Speaker placement and toe in or out, 2- Room Eq and 3- room treatments will give you huge massive benefits compared to any amp, pre-amp, wires, interconnects etc. But it is a lot harder to do the big three than just running out and buying the latest new piece of the same old gear hoping that it will create magic in a system. Gee? How did I get so off track? I must be getting senile!

Jonfo has good advice as he is 100% custom and scientific in his home system. It is crazy good.
I'd like to eventually move to separates rather than using a receiver like i am now. Parasound is the other amp I'd consider. The Parasound costs 2x as much.

With new home construction prices being astronomical, we won't be building any time soon. So I have plenty of time to think about the decision.
 

rpokuls

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So the frequency response graph Floyd Toole shows in his presentation on the YouTube video comes from page 394 of his book
"Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms". This book was published in 2008.

So the measurement taken no later than 2008 and probably earlier and are thus at least 13 years old.

What model series did ML have then?
 
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