new 2 channel amp & crossover

[Dgeez]

Hi All:
I bought my system in 94 and since the CLS don't go much below 80 Hz, the dealer suggested Kinergetics amp & crossover to get to the deep end of the pool. Today something is amiss. It's shy of producing serious bass and clean highs.
Do any of you have experience with new crossovers? I can get a simple 2 channel to drive the woofers but I'm not at all up to speed on crossovers. Somebody help an old man out !!!
Thanxs;
Dick

 

[Brad225]

Hi Dick,
It seems something is missing from the information you provided. What are you crossing over to? The CLS series obviously has no woofers so do you have bass unit such as the one Kinergetics made or just subs?

If you have subs they should have some type of crossover point you should be able to adjust.

There are people here with alot of experience with crossovers but I am not one of them.

Explain a bit more about what you are wanting to crossover to and someone here should be able to help.

 

[Dgeez]

Hi Brad:
As the CLS don't go much below 80Hz, I need a crossover to allow my stats to play from 20 kHz down to 80Hz and then let my existing woofers to take over from 80 Hz and play down to 20 Hz. Kinergetics manufactured amps with volume controls and built in crossovers, but have since gone out of business. It seemed a good solution in 94.
Now I need two new pieces --- a two channel amp & a crossover. Because I can't seem to find a one box solution today --- and that's ok.
Can you see my stereo system pic?
Dick

 

[JonFo]

Hi Dick, I don't see a link to your system in either of your posts, could you please provide a link, or if not, start a new system post over in the new members systems sub-forum.

As for crossovers, you will need to buy a Marchand or similar analog crossover, then put that between the pre-amp and your existing amp. Then you will need a powered sub to handle the sub-duties. Plenty of discussion about those here. A ML Depth would be an appropriate choice

Not quite a one-box, but fairly simple. If you want more complex, jut see my system

 

[Brad225]

Are you just using using speakers in a box for woofers or are they something manufactured for this purpose. I am a bit confused on that part but that's not unusual.

I am guessing they are not subs you are using.

I use 2 Depth I subs with my CLSIIz and they mate very well with great ability to make adjustments for ypreferencesnces.

As JonFo said pictures would be helpful.

 

[Dgeez]

I guess folks are very accustomed to powered subs these days. Mine are two 10 inch woofers per box in stereo not powered. The power amp & crossover are combined in a separate box. Maybe look at the system as bi-amped.
I hope this will help:

The company has been out of business for so long there is no way to access them on the web. At this time I simply do not have the funds to purchase new powered subs, but if I did it would definitely be 2 Depths!
I need to learn how to link my ML Owners Club info with this forum. I don't see any way to attach a photo in these threads.
Dick

 

[Dgeez]

Hi Jonathan !
Can you see my system now using this link?
Dick
www.martinlogan.com/insiders/index.php?system=1&sysID=914

 

[RUR]

Just to make it easy on everyone:

http://www.martinlogan.com/insiders/index.php?system=1&sysID=914

 

[JonFo]

OK, now I get it. You already have a two-way active crossover system based on the Kingergetics SW-100 system comprised of an amp/crossover and two woofer units.

You seem to be looking for a way to lower the crossover point from the default 100Hz to 80Hz and possibly use a steeper crossover slope, right?

If so, then my previous recommendation for the Marchand is step 1, a steeper crossover. They are available in 2-way stereo configs, so no problem there.
Then you need a good power-amp for the woofer. But I suggest you start jsut by feeding the existing SW-800 amp you already have. Since the new crossover is lower and steeper, not much risk in too much high-pass filtering above 100hz.

If that does not quite do it for you, you could then try another amp.

But in general, I wonder if this is really the fix for your lean bass problem. Does the Kinergetics system still work effectively? That is, are all the woofer surrounds intact (after nearly 18 years, they could be rotted)?
Your problem might be mechanical/physics related on the low-end.

I'd suggest a bit more triage of the problem first.

 

[Brad225]

When I purchased my Depth I's a couple of years ago I waited until some came up on Audiogon used.
I was able to purchase them in very good condition for $900 & $1000.
I know that is not cheap but as opposed to new crossovers and amps plus as JonFo mentioned are the current drivers in good condition.

One Depth worked well though 2 are better. Just a thought.

To the question you had on attachments to your messages.

Go to the bottom of the message page and click on go advanced.
There you will see a manage attachments bar to click on.
You can upload pics or drawings from your computer there.

 

[Dgeez]

Hi Yaz !
The problem exists in the amp & crossover unit --- the woofers / drivers are great! Still sealed boxes and no rot. The problem started immediately after I got the amp/xover back from the factory. I've just put up with it for 16 years. I've had three great cable brand companies installed and I hear absolutely no change in the sound. The Tara Labs national rep was at my house for an hour and couldn't understand why his full set of interconnects and speaker wire made no change.
The woofers don't have integrated amp on board power. I really don't want to buy new drivers/woofers. Just a new crossover / 2 channel amp -- hopefully a single box solution. I don't need the xover to be higher or lower --- there is no default point. There are four crossover points the Kinergetics amp/xover unit.
Thanxs for the reply.

 

[JonFo]

Hi Dick, I looked around, and did not find any single box Stereo crossover + amp setups outside of pro-audio gear.

For your setup, It's going to be active crossover + stereo amp I'm afraid. Outside of pro-audio amps, there are no other combo crossover + stereo amp. Several crossover plus single channel amp setups. This Dayton Sub amp has dual speaker outputs, but I believe it's a mono signal from the sum of the L+R low-pass crossover.

Outside of that, a Marchand XM9 stereo crossover plus any used good quality SS amp of 200wpc or better will do the job. I personally recommend a used Sunfire Stereo for this application.

 

[gordonmenninger]

Why bother with the xover? I would just get one or preferably 2 good subs... Go with the Martin Logan subs or if you want something more fierce, go with a couple of JL Fathoms! Either way you cannot go wrong and it will be a HUGE improvement! Just make sure you place them well and take your time setting them up with phase, polarity, etc!

 

[JonFo]

Why bother with the xover?

The crossover will remove all the LF energy from the CLS. If the CLS amp and panels are trying to do a 30Hz signal, it stresses the amp and the panel can't really deliver and all you get is distorted mid-bass as a reward.

best to remove the <80hz signal from the panel. And better yet to use a steep (24dB/octave or more) crossover slope in the HP filter to the panels.

 

[Dgeez]

Well -- After all the blood sweat and tears the solution was so simple it's embarrassing. At first I didn't tink it would work well but it does -- I was afraid the voltage would be too little to drove both amps. Here it is: run a (RCA) splitter from the L & R analog outputs of the DAC into the main ARC amp and Kinergetics bass amp. The CLS runs full range and my old Kinergetics amp is xovered at 100 Hz (no other selections available from the manufacture). I have completely bypassed the crossover circuitry in the Kinergetics amp. The stats are sounding cleaner than ever. The mid bass is sweet. The deep bass is --- chocolate!
Thanxs All;
Dick

 

[Brad225]

Glad to hear it worked out that well for no $ spent.