Near Field Subs = 😎

[SKY888]

I recently upgraded my old pair of sealed 12” subs (Atlantic Technology 642eSB) with a pair of SVS SB16 ultras.
I was planning to sell the old subs, but I ended up trying “near field” set-up for them instead.
I’m glad I did, because now, the 5.4 system - only calibrated by audyssey xt32, the result was amazing. There’s no bass delays, all the subs (far field & near field) hit me at the same time. No localization whatsover.

Tactile response is way better compared to using transducers . In my opinion transducers are not as natural visceral feel compared to what near field subs offer.
I’m pretty sure that using miniDSP will really tune & fully optimize my 4 subs, but for now, I’ll enjoy my current set-up

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

I've heard of a number of people that have done this and all have reported great results. Are they using the same crossover point as the front subs?

 

[SKY888]

I've heard of a number of people that have done this and all have reported great results. Are they using the same crossover point as the front subs?

I believe so!

I use LFE 120hz on both

 

[sleepysurf]

I'm doing something similar, with a pair of ML BF210's placed behind our sofa, described in this post. However, I'm only using one of the subs for 2 channel listening, as adding the second (daisy chained from the first) actually muddied things up a bit. However, for Home Theater, I am feeding LFE to it from my Anthem MRX 740, as a 5.2 setup. I'm using the BF 210 sub custom crossover filter for Expressions woofers -10 dB. When I first got the MRX 740, I tried using it as the Pre for 2 channel, using both subs, but I didn't like what it did to the mids and highs. It's come a long ways since then, including automatic phase alignment, so I might try it again, limiting correction to <200 Hz or so.

 

[JonFo]

Cool, glad it's delivering grins and punch.

I gather your processor has Audyssey SubHT with dual outputs?
That allows independent time and level adjustments for the front and rear subs. It works quite well.

If not, then it gets even better if you use a miniDSP and carefully time-align them, and maybe try a bandpass filter to focus on the mid-bass if the overall bass is too much.

 

[SKY888]

Cool, glad it's delivering grins and punch.

I gather your processor has Audyssey SubHT with dual outputs?
That allows independent time and level adjustments for the front and rear subs. It works quite well.

If not, then it gets even better if you use a miniDSP and carefully time-align them, and maybe try a bandpass filter to focus on the mid-bass if the overall bass is too much.

Yes sir, Marantz SR6012 has sub EQ HT.
One sub output of the AVR I used a y-splitter for the far field subs and the other output has y-splitter for the near field subs.

That’s why I think, with the 4 subs, they work together very decently. I know it will not be as good compared to using minidsp HD. But for me, I don’t have the patience and time for tons of headaches to tune & squeeze whatever I can using minidsp lol
I’m very happy with what the audyssey sub EQ HT has calibrated for my set up.

 

[SKY888]

I'm doing something similar, with a pair of ML BF210's placed behind our sofa, described in this post. However, I'm only using one of the subs for 2 channel listening, as adding the second (daisy chained from the first) actually muddied things up a bit. However, for Home Theater, I am feeding LFE to it from my Anthem MRX 740, as a 5.2 setup. I'm using the BF 210 sub custom crossover filter for Expressions woofers -10 dB. When I first got the MRX 740, I tried using it as the Pre for 2 channel, using both subs, but I didn't like what it did to the mids and highs. It's come a long ways since then, including automatic phase alignment, so I might try it again, limiting correction to <200 Hz or so.

Were you able to figure out why it’s getting muddy while you daisy chained the subs?

 

[sleepysurf]

Were you able to figure out why it’s getting muddy while you daisy chained the subs?

The dual 10" woofers on the Expressions go down to 24 Hz, with extremely tight bass, that is superbly time aligned with the panels, except for the wide bass null at main listening position. Adding one BF210 sub (behind the sofa) adequately fills in the bass null, while slightly muddying the bass (due to imperfect time alignment with the main speakers). Adding the second BF210 sub increases the bass loudness, but further smears the lowest octave, due to the same time alignment issue.

For home theater, the Anthem MRX 740, with ARC Genesis' time alignment (and phase) correction, optimizes the entire setup using both subs.

I could certainly add a MiniDSP into my 2 channel mix, but, like SKY888 above, I don't care to add yet another component to my setup. What I've got right now is "good enough" (at least until my audiophile brain demands further pursuit of perfection)!

 

[TiBoneFramer]

I recently upgraded my old pair of sealed 12” subs (Atlantic Technology 642eSB) with a pair of SVS SB16 ultras.
I was planning to sell the old subs, but I ended up trying “near field” set-up for them instead.
I’m glad I did, because now, the 5.4 system - only calibrated by audyssey xt32, the result was amazing. There’s no bass delays, all the subs (far field & near field) hit me at the same time. No localization whatsover.

Tactile response is way better compared to using transducers . In my opinion transducers are not as natural visceral feel compared to what near field subs offer.
I’m pretty sure that using miniDSP will really tune & fully optimize my 4 subs, but for now, I’ll enjoy my current set-up

Sky could you comment more on 'no bass delays/hitting you at the same time?' I have one sub 3' to the side of my MLP and two in the front. Even level matched the one closer to me seems louder, and I have found the 'best' distance with the least nulls via REW. Would be curious if you know something I dont.

 

[SKY888]

Sky could you comment more on 'no bass delays/hitting you at the same time?' I have one sub 3' to the side of my MLP and two in the front. Even level matched the one closer to me seems louder, and I have found the 'best' distance with the least nulls via REW. Would be curious if you know something I dont.

What calibration system did you use?

Also, all 3 subs hit you at the same time? And the one closer to you, just sounds louder?
Maybe you can just decrease the gain on it, and see what happens.

The thing with subs, you shouldn’t “hear” they. They shouldn’t be localized.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Hi Sky,
If you would be so kind to not make fun of me, how do I know if the subs are hitting me at the same time?

I find if I turn the subs down where they cant be noticed, its not enough bass for my ears. But the near field one is way too audible, especially above 80hz (whatever is above the crossover

 

[Robert D]

Hi Sky,
If you would be so kind to not make fun of me, how do I know if the subs are hitting me at the same time?

I find if I turn the subs down where they cant be noticed, its not enough bass for my ears. But the near field one is way too audible, especially above 80hz (whatever is above the crossover

Show a picture of where your near field sub is. I've never used subs like this, but it seems like they should be close to what you're sitting on and aim right at it. You say yours is off to the side. Maybe position is the problem.

 

[SKY888]

Hi Sky,
If you would be so kind to not make fun of me, how do I know if the subs are hitting me at the same time?

I find if I turn the subs down where they cant be noticed, its not enough bass for my ears. But the near field one is way too audible, especially above 80hz (whatever is above the crossover

Hello, I’m also learning daily about all these stuff lol

Bass shouldn’t be “heard” but rather be “felt”. If you can hear one sub over another sub or subs, then it means that sub is “localized”. Lots of factors are in play such as distance/time align/delay/phase/etc.
Also, If one sub has more gain than the other, then you’ll hear it over others.

They should all arrive (hit you) at you at the same time. Or else the overall bass Will not be tight…..and will not sound right.

Your AVR should have an auto calibration system who should do all these stuff for you. And you can always adjust it manually afterwards especially if you can still hear your near field sub is more noticeable compared to others.

If you are not hearing or feeling “enough bass” , then maybe instead of turning down your nearfield sub’s gain level…you can increase the gain of your other sub/subs. This way all your subs are “equal” and nothing is localized

 

[SKY888]

Hi Sky,
If you would be so kind to not make fun of me, how do I know if the subs are hitting me at the same time?

I find if I turn the subs down where they cant be noticed, its not enough bass for my ears. But the near field one is way too audible, especially above 80hz (whatever is above the crossover

Hello,

This post from Avsforum member (SBuger) might be helpful for youll

He posted June 13, 2015….
“Another thing is, since its so close (and my LP is not near a wall, its not boomy at all). Its so fast, clean (non boomy/bloated), and hits hard. Even though there is no room gain at all, it shakes the couch all the way down to ~12Hz with one port pluged and its so cool! My frequency response doe'snt read real flat, but I really don't think it matters with the driver being so close and facing into the couch. I've messed with trying to get it as flat as possible with the miniDSP but usually go back to unEQ'd, as this seems to sound and feel the best to me with LOTS of tinkering over the last few months or so. Also FYI if you end up doing a nearfield sub and wonder which would be the best direction to point the driver, I think facing you is the best. If I run a frequency response with sub in this position right behind the couch, its pretty much the same with the driver facing me or facing parallel to the couch. Even though the FR read pretty much the same, it hits way harder with the driver facing into the couch. One more thing I should mention, I ran it at the end of the couch as an end table and I didn't care for it nearly as much as being directly behind me. With it on the end of the couch, I could localize WAY easier and didn't hit me near as hard. In both positions I crossed at 80 for fronts, center and height channels. Then crossed at 90 for the rears. I've never had a problem with voices in either location and pretty much no localization when it directly behind me.”

 

[Duke]

I'm doing something similar, with a pair of ML BF210's placed behind our sofa, described in this post. However, I'm only using one of the subs for 2 channel listening, as adding the second (daisy chained from the first) actually muddied things up a bit. However, for Home Theater, I am feeding LFE to it from my Anthem MRX 740, as a 5.2 setup. I'm using the BF 210 sub custom crossover filter for Expressions woofers -10 dB. When I first got the MRX 740, I tried using it as the Pre for 2 channel, using both subs, but I didn't like what it did to the mids and highs. It's come a long ways since then, including automatic phase alignment, so I might try it again, limiting correction to <200 Hz or so.

Hi, I read your posts a lot over the years. If you used your XLR in for sub 1 and daisychained it to the RCA input of sub 2, did you raise the gain of sub 2 3dB to accommodate signal difference between XLR and RCA? A speaker builder (horns) noticed this during a visit at my house and adjusted my Descents that way. It helped a lot.

 

[Robert D]

Hi, I read your posts a lot over the years. If you used your XLR in for sub 1 and daisychained it to the RCA input of sub 2, did you raise the gain of sub 2 3dB to accommodate signal difference between XLR and RCA? A speaker builder (horns) noticed this during a visit at my house and adjusted my Descents that way. It helped a lot.

Wow, you saw a 3 dB difference between XLR and RCA wires? Were the wires identical other than the terminals, or was one a better quality?
That's a big difference if it's not due to cable quality. I've not heard of that before.

 

[Duke]

XLR inherently has a lower noise floor. I did a quick search for a confirmation and stopped with the very first one I could find (on Audiokarma).
That +3db you're seeing represents the attendant increase in dynamic range,and thus it's a means to ensure maximum signal integrity.