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Multi panel CLS

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Chuck Lee

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I would like to know if anyone has used multiple CLS panels in a stacked configuration,either vertically or horizontal ?
Also can you run multiple panels off of a single interface,like you could with the old Acoustats that were tube powered?
Would just an extra set of panels placed beside the original and wired series/parallel work?
Looking to improve on the mids and bass of this fine speaker.
 

aliveatfive

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Interesting suggestion. The only experience I had with multiple speaker pairs was my original "double Advents." This was a combination originally recommended in the first issue of The Absolute Sound. I would suspect an increase in bass response. Phase problems might become a possibitly if set-up were less than perfectly done. If anyone tries this, let us know of your findings.
 

miljac

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stacked electrostatics

Hi,

I have not heard any stacked ML combinations, but years ago I had the opportunity to hear a vertical stack of 3 modified Quad ESL 57's.
What to say .... I was left breathless and so was everyone that heard the combination.
I guess that the stacked CLS would give some awesome fast bass.
The Quads were notorious for lacking the bass; the stack's bass was nothing short of awesome: deep, fast, wonderful.
(this was a pre-subwoofer era).
 

Chuck Lee

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Stacked CLS

Yes I know what stacked ESL 57 sounds like I had a pair.That's why I am looking for anyone who has any ideas to do it with the CLS. I used the Walker stacking guide and used a wood frame.I am looking for a similar plan as I have 2 pair of CLS now.
 

JonFo

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If added bass is what you are craving, just add a top quality sub. The new Velodyne DD series is very good and the integrated room optimization software does wonders for bass quality.

I know that getting sub to panel integration is critical, but with today's speaker processors (or settings in modern surround processors) it's quite doable.
 

JonFo

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Stacked Centers?

Now here's an interesting twist, how to get more volume out of the center to better match the L/R speakers.

Would stacking two Logos or theater i's do the trick?

I've always wondered about high SPL imbalance between one little Logos and the big panels of the Monoliths. Seems to me there is just not enough surface area on the logos midrange panels to keep up.

BTW- I have my center behind a perforated screen so it can get as wild and crazy as it needs to. It just has to sound great :)
 

DTB300

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JonFo said:
If added bass is what you are craving, just add a top quality sub. The new Velodyne DD series is very good and the integrated room optimization software does wonders for bass quality.
Or save some $$$ and buy one of the lower cost Velodyne's (still servo controlled) and purchased the SMS-1 to add onto it (the DD optimization software but in a stand-alone unit). People have been loving this option when they do not want to pay for the level of the DD Line.

Dan
 
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jjqiv

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JonFo said:
Now here's an interesting twist, how to get more volume out of the center to better match the L/R speakers.

Would stacking two Logos or theater i's do the trick?

I've always wondered about high SPL imbalance between one little Logos and the big panels of the Monoliths. Seems to me there is just not enough surface area on the logos midrange panels to keep up.

BTW- I have my center behind a perforated screen so it can get as wild and crazy as it needs to. It just has to sound great :)
Why don't you just use another Monolith other large ML for the center?
 

Chuck Lee

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Stacking CLS

I have a Depth. It is behind the listening seats. What I am looking for is the kind of overall improvement you get when you stack a pair of 57 Quads.That is more of everything good about this speaker.I never noticed that my Theatre centre was lacking anything, but again why not go for as much of the good life as you can achieve.So if anyone has or knows of Martin Logan "stackers" please let us in on how you would go about it.
Thanks for the responses so far.
 

JonFo

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jjqiv said:
Why don't you just use another Monolith other large ML for the center?
I've thought about using a single CLS panel along with some high quality 8" drivers for the 60 to 200hz range. I do my own crossovers and speaker processing with DBX 260's, so that's an option.

Just thought the idea of stacked centers might have been tried. But it surely introduces combing artifacts that would be hard to work around.
 

jjqiv

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JonFo said:
I've thought about using a single CLS panel along with some high quality 8" drivers for the 60 to 200hz range. I do my own crossovers and speaker processing with DBX 260's, so that's an option.

Just thought the idea of stacked centers might have been tried. But it surely introduces combing artifacts that would be hard to work around.
I would roll CLS's off a little lower. Around 100-125Hz and let a good sub hand the remaining frequency range. That is what I am doing with my CLS's in a two channel set-up.
 

Peter Hogan

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jjqiv said:
I would roll CLS's off a little lower. Around 100-125Hz and let a good sub hand the remaining frequency range. That is what I am doing with my CLS's in a two channel set-up.
I chose 140Hz for mine. CLS's for the top, a pair of 12" for woofers, and a Velo 18" for 50Hz on down...:)

Peter
 

roberto

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Peter Hogan said:
I chose 140Hz for mine. CLS's for the top, a pair of 12" for woofers, and a Velo 18" for 50Hz on down...:)

Peter
Hola Chicos. With all respect, the CLSs have one of the greatest bass. Yes, they don´t play too loud and because you are used to have tons of bass energy in your room, you think and say they are bass shy, but the sound and the musician playing for you at the stage is remarcable. If you don´t have them properly setted in your room, there will be no bass at all. Don´t cut the lows, just play the sub (if you want to have a sub or two subs with them), a little bit, really soft, increase the level of the sub until you feel the deepness, not hear it in your room. If you cut them, you will loose all the benefits that coherence means, phase shift, and the detail that they are capable to reproduce. The frequency response of the CLS IIz is almost flat from 40 Hz and up!!! The natural resonances of the musical instruments are reproduced as close as they are with the CLSs. The problem is that they will show the quality of the recording and the quality of your system. The CLSs are true hi-end goods, and you have to dedicate many effort and time to get the best of them. I understand that bass is very important, but try to listen the instruments live, in a piano jazz place, or small orchestra, with strings and winds. If you don´t play any muscial instrument, bring a friend who does, like spanish or folk guitar. Unplugged please!!!! Listen carfully the bass notes, and then reproduce any similar music with the subs on, until you have the same size of the guitar in your room. This is not too difficult to do. Listen how the low notes are projected in the room, and try to emulate them. This is fun to do, and also helps to understand the right size of the instruments. This is my personal point of view, and not necessary must be yours, the good thing is that this might help!. Happy listening, trust your ears,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 
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Peter Hogan

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roberto said:
Hola Chicos.
[snip]
The frequency response of the CLS IIz is almost flat from 40 Hz and up!!!
[snip]
Pura vida,
Roberto.
Hi,
I have measured mine, and while what you say is true at low volumes, at higher volumes it most definately is not. I found mine to be reasonably flat down to about 140Hz, even at quite high volumes, but would drop off quickly below that, hence the choice of my crossover frequency.

I should also say that I have a VERY early pair of CLS's (I believe them to be a prototype pair). The serial numbers on them do not adhere to ML's normal method, i.e. the electronics are ML-211-1E and ML-211-2E. The panels have no serial numbers, I've looked. The electronics boxes are also MUCH smaller than later CLS's, and they have a single step-up transformer mounted on the outside of the box, not 2 on the inside. I purchased these CLS's from a gent in Lawrence, Kansas, who in turn originally purchased them from Ron Sutherland (hint: his middle name is 'Logan', and he was the design engineer in the early days of the company, and along with Gayle Martin Sanders, one of the founders of ML).

The frequency response of these may well be different from later versions, I haven't measured those, but that is what I found with this pair.

Merry Christmas, :)
Peter
 

roberto

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Peter Hogan said:
Hi,
I have measured mine, and while what you say is true at low volumes, at higher volumes it most definately is not. I found mine to be reasonably flat down to about 140Hz, even at quite high volumes, but would drop off quickly below that, hence the choice of my crossover frequency.

I should also say that I have a VERY early pair of CLS's (I believe them to be a prototype pair). The serial numbers on them do not adhere to ML's normal method, i.e. the electronics are ML-211-1E and ML-211-2E. The panels have no serial numbers, I've looked. The electronics boxes are also MUCH smaller than later CLS's, and they have a single step-up transformer mounted on the outside of the box, not 2 on the inside. I purchased these CLS's from a gent in Lawrence, Kansas, who in turn originally purchased them from Ron Sutherland (hint: his middle name is 'Logan', and he was the design engineer in the early days of the company, and along with Gayle Martin Sanders, one of the founders of ML).

The frequency response of these may well be different from later versions, I haven't measured those, but that is what I found with this pair.

Merry Christmas, :)
Peter
Merry Xmas to you Peter. just guessing, why don't you talk with Jim Power to find out if you could make an up-dated to your CLS?...I have my first pair, I bought them in 87, and also have another pair, and these are the ones that I'm using...CLSIIz. I can say that the extension at highs and lows are far better than my earlier version. Also its sensitivity...I need a lot of power to run earlier version than the CLSIIz. The scenario, size of the instruments are about the same, but dynamics. Also, at the earlier version, the timbre, the tonal sound of the spanish guitar, is a little different. Gee, I don't know which I like most. Do your best and find out of a possible up-dated...to my liking and my ears, the CLSIIz is a better product. Hope this can help! Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 
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Peter Hogan

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roberto said:
Merry Xmas to you Peter. just guessing, why don't you talk with Jim Power to find out if you could make an up-dated to your CLS?...I have my first pair, I bought them in 87, and also have another pair, and these are the ones that I'm using...CLSIIz. I can say that the extension at highs and lows are far better than my earlier version. Also its sensitivity...I need a lot of power to run earlier version than the CLSIIz. The scenario, size of the instruments are about the same, but dynamics. Also, at the earlier version, the timbre, the tonal sound of the spanish guitar, is a little different. Gee, I don't know which I like most. Do your best and find out of a possible up-dated...to my liking and my ears, the CLSIIz is a better product. Hope this can help! Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
Hi,
I did call a couple of years ago, and inquired about new electronics boxes, I was quoted $3K for a pair...considering I only paid $1K for the speakers, I declined the offer. Also I would have had to redrill the wooden frames, the smaller electronics boxes have a different hole pattern than the new larger ones (I have a friend with CLS IIz's...they do sound a bit different, and are much more effecient).

When I bought the CLS's, also included were a new, unstained, unfinished pair of cherry wood frames. I've been considering getting panels, and making up my own electronics for these, to make a second pair of CLS's, but so far that has been a back burner project that hasn't happened yet, plus there's the minor matter of available cash...:).

I agree about the need for lots of power. I'm using a Carver amp with 600 watts/ch and it is none too powerful, you can use nearly all its available power on loud sections of music, when it's cranked up. I've tried this amp with another set of regular speakers (Yamaha NS-10's), and its WAY overpowered for those. It has LED vu-meters for power output, and it goes louder than you'll ever want to listen to it without the meter budging off the bottom LED...even the CLS's go fairly loud before the meter moves.

I'm using a Classe DR-10 for an amp with the woofers, it has 100/ch into 8 ohms, and 200/ch into 4 ohms. I originally used it for the CLS's, and while it sounded great, it didn't really have enough power for them. Since I'm using the external crossover (before the power amps), I have the Classe connected directly to the woofer voice coils, with no crossover there for best speaker control.

Peter
 
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