Motion xt60

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Lucian C

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Hi group,
I am new on forums, I paired my Martin Logan xt60 with Cambridge Audio Azur 851W,and it seems a not good sounding.
Mid frequency problem and no more details show.
Could you help me with some ampl suggestions.

Lucian.
15929563730231511816371560178079.jpg
 

Nopiano

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Hi Lucian, and welcome. I’m sure you’re feeling disappointed, but it’s not really to clear what is not working as you’d expect. You say ‘not more details show’ - does this mean the sound is muffled or dull?

Have you the opportunity to check with some other speakers? Is there definitely no mistake in connection, such as speakers out of phase?

A fundamental problem in the sound is unlikely to be solved with an amplifier change, unless your Cambridge is faulty. Broadly speaking most solid state amplifiers are similar - the differences are subtle, although important, if you see what I mean.
 

Lucian C

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Hi Lucian, and welcome. I’m sure you’re feeling disappointed, but it’s not really to clear what is not working as you’d expect. You say ‘not more details show’ - does this mean the sound is muffled or dull?

Have you the opportunity to check with some other speakers? Is there definitely no mistake in connection, such as speakers out of phase?

A fundamental problem in the sound is unlikely to be solved with an amplifier change, unless your Cambridge is faulty. Broadly speaking most solid state amplifiers are similar - the differences are subtle, although important, if you see what I mean.
 

Lucian C

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Thank you for the answer.
Before ML , I owened a Wharfedale Reva 4 running verry well.
I checked the faze and is ok.
I used for ML , 2 speacker cable Audioquest Type 4 in bi-wire, and the space between stage was too large, ex vocal and drummer in the middle of the room and guitars sound comming from the speackers, was a ireal sound , like HomeTheatre, and bass and mids was in the back.
Now , I use Audioquest Oak, and the scene is more natural.
A small problem with mids still remain, piano notes and womens voices are still in the back of scene, there are my teasons to suspect my amplifier.
Over all , I am 95 % happy with Martin Logan Motion Xt60, and I will keep for long time.
 

twich54

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Lucian, what is / are the sources for your music. Tell us more about the rest of the equipment in your kit as well as the room in which it resides. IMO, unless your amp is being pushed beyond it's design capabilities I'm thinking the problem lies elsewhere.
 

Lucian C

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Yes, I listen just streaming service



My System:

ROON+Qobuz
Furman M-8x2 ( for dac)
RaspberyPi + HifiBerry Digi+Pro(SPDIF board)+Volumio( with power bank 5v3 Ah)
Audioquest Carbon Coaxial
Audioquest NRG-X3( for Dac)
SMSL D1 Dac
Auduoquest MacKenzie XLR
Audioquest Monsoon( for power ampl)
Cambridge Audio Azur 851W
Audioquest OAK
Martin Logan XT60
All the equipament are brand new except Audioquest OAk who is second hand.
Listen just Jazz ( clasical and fusion)
Thank you very much.
 

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Lucian C

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Living room 8 meters ×4 meters, I use width of the living room.
 

twich54

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Lucian, your photo shows little to no toe-in with your speakers, whereas your drawing depicts considerable toe-in with an axis intersection at your seating location (approx 8.3 ft away). I know toe-in is a personal thing and in my case I prefer axis intersection to be approx 3 ft in back of me.

tell us more about the dissatisfaction with mid freq / detail. Was it at the time of the new speakers being introduced, insertion of the Cambridge amp into the mix or perhaps both changes (amp and speakers) made at the same time ?
 

Lucian C

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Hi,

You have right about toe-in, my dealer recomanded no toe-in necessary, so I place with a little toe in.
Problem with the mids happened when I moved in in this suite, first placement of the speackers , sound was tertific.After mesurements , I bring the speackers more closer and away for the back wall.
This move bring sound scene.and 3D.
First was placement was like 3,5 meters between and more closer to back wals ( no scene , sound comes direct from the speackers).
I suspect the open space from the back of the listen position , and short distance between front and rear wall.
Also when I am clapping my hands I have echoes come from the top right corner of the room, I will try to put there some bass-traps.
But after all, many people suggested me to replace the ampl Cambridge Audio .
I tryed some DSP correction using the DSP's Roon Labs, brings me detailes, voices become in the front, but compess al lot in the bass range.
Other potential issue is that I have no a preamplificator , I use digial volume control of my DAC.
So I am between and I don't know how to start.
 
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Lucian C

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When I will arrive home, I will reconsider listen position using more toe- in, and 3 fts in the back of listen position.
Thank you for advice.
 

spkrdctr

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I would not look at your amp as it is not the issue. Your issue is 100% speaker placement and toe in and tilt angle. You have to take your time and adjust toe in by an inch at a time over a 45 degree angle, then when you think you have it set very good, then adjust toe in on ONE speaker only and try it an inch at a time so you will have two different toe ins. Remember you are getting the best sound with both speakers having the same toe in and then you are experimenting with one speaker in its best spot so far and the other at a different toe in. Do this with both speakers. MANY (15%?) times a crazy looking toe in situation has the best sound. Experiment a lot! Using your toe in and tilt (if any) will affect the higher midrange and highs the most. Fine tuning your speaker placement and angles is 90 percent of having it sound good. All this speaker movement is changing your sound pretty radically as your changing the off axis response mix of the two speakers. Your equipment is all fine and should work great. It just takes awhile to do all the testing and moving around. Find one piece of music that you really like and really know how it sounds, then just keep repeating the tests over and over with that same track and you will get it tuned very well. In the end you might not have perfection due to the build of the room but you will get it to sound very, very good.

When it sounds wrong, it is 90% or more do to the different room nodes and cancellation of sound and multiplication of other. Changing the angle will move where in space the cancelation takes place and changes your time reflections off the walls and ceiling which is very important. etc. You hold the power of great sound literally in your hands! Keep at it and don't give up. Try anything you want too as weird stuff happens and you might find a really nice sweet spot.. Your speakers are capable of amazing sound!
 

Lucian C

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I would not look at your amp as it is not the issue. Your issue is 100% speaker placement and toe in and tilt angle. You have to take your time and adjust toe in by an inch at a time over a 45 degree angle, then when you think you have it set very good, then adjust toe in on ONE speaker only and try it an inch at a time so you will have two different toe ins. Remember you are getting the best sound with both speakers having the same toe in and then you are experimenting with one speaker in its best spot so far and the other at a different toe in. Do this with both speakers. MANY (15%?) times a crazy looking toe in situation has the best sound. Experiment a lot! Using your toe in and tilt (if any) will affect the higher midrange and highs the most. Fine tuning your speaker placement and angles is 90 percent of having it sound good. All this speaker movement is changing your sound pretty radically as your changing the off axis response mix of the two speakers. Your equipment is all fine and should work great. It just takes awhile to do all the testing and moving around. Find one piece of music that you really like and really know how it sounds, then just keep repeating the tests over and over with that same track and you will get it tuned very well. In the end you might not have perfection due to the build of the room but you will get it to sound very, very good.

When it sounds wrong, it is 90% or more do to the different room nodes and cancellation of sound and multiplication of other. Changing the angle will move where in space the cancelation takes place and changes your time reflections off the walls and ceiling which is very important. etc. You hold the power of great sound literally in your hands! Keep at it and don't give up. Try anything you want too as weird stuff happens and you might find a really nice sweet spot.. Your speakers are capable of amazing sound!
 

AuBrisbane

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Hi Lucian

Your fist big image is showing that next to your R/H ML speaker is a cabinet, very close to your speaker and your drawing is showing 1,8 m free space. Your speakers are not sitting 0,8m away from the back wall.
Apart from fixing presence of echo in your room I would be tempted to check details of your bi-wiring settings on your amp. I guess you also tried non bi-wire connection in the process of finding best outcome?
One very old trick of finding best toe-in was to send 1KHz sound to both speakers and adjust toe-in until 1KHz sound is coming right in between of two speakers.
If I may suggest, avoid putting your sitting position in perfect triangle position to your speakers, move it a bit inside or outside triangular space ( if everything else is O.K. that will help with 'soundstage' perception)
So, what was your impression when you tested ML speakers at your Dealer Store, with your own well known piece of music?
One thing for sure Wharfedale Reva 4 and ML XT60 will never sound the same, they simply sound different like any other pair of speakers available.

Good luck with finding best sound for your room.

Zoran from Australia
 

spkrdctr

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That is also a good idea on getting a starting position. Use a test tone and see what happens. The whole issue is a LOT of experimentation. It will come together and work very well. Oh, also keep a record of everything you do that sounds pretty good. Make sure you know EXACTLY how the speakers were toed in and out so that when you have another "sounds pretty good" position you can compare them and then you keep the winner of that comparison as your baseline. This will make you ratchet up your very good position as you will always keep the highest best performing position as your reference. You don't want to get confused and have to redo the testing! It actually if done over time and with good record keeping is not hard at all. It can be fun as you continually test and tweak to a higher performance level. Once you get where you have tried pretty much everything, just keep the best performing positions and your done. Even thinking of this I'm getting the urge to buy more speakers and do some testing!
 

Lucian C

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My progress,
Things goes better.
Followed your advice , i made an echilateral triangle with listening position 1 ft inside of it.
Fantastic sound , more realistic , more live, big stage .
Mids are better now, pianos and female voices ,better sounding.
Reopen my apetit for listen music !
 

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RAH

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Hi,

You have right about toe-in, my dealer recomanded no toe-in necessary, so I place with a little toe in.
Problem with the mids happened when I moved in in this suite, first placement of the speackers , sound was tertific.After mesurements , I bring the speackers more closer and away for the back wall.
This move bring sound scene.and 3D.
First was placement was like 3,5 meters between and more closer to back wals ( no scene , sound comes direct from the speackers).
I suspect the open space from the back of the listen position , and short distance between front and rear wall.
Also when I am clapping my hands I have echoes come from the top right corner of the room, I will try to put there some bass-traps.
But after all, many people suggested me to replace the ampl Cambridge Audio .
I tryed some DSP correction using the DSP's Roon Labs, brings me detailes, voices become in the front, but compess al lot in the bass range.
Other potential issue is that I have no a preamplificator , I use digial volume control of my DAC.
So I am between and I don't know how to start.
I agree with other respected colleagues when they delineated your power amp is okay. Because with the same amp and speakers the sound was terrific before you moved to existing residence. My music room is slightly larger than your space. However I have placed ML in front of short wall. Please do try placing motion 60 in front of patio exit and curtains. You can experiment with this position to see if sonics improve. For a day place system in front of patio exit and curtains. Poor sound in the mids and lack of detail is because of suboptimal placement of system within room. Another reason for poor sound is Motion 60 drivers need run in or break in. I listen to Motion 15 in my second room. When they were brand new the sonics were great. Soon after the sound deteriorated because the drivers needed break in. Slowly the sound got better again. Same applies to your amp. Capacitors inside amp will take 2 to 3 months to reach peak performance. I hope with passage of time and usage hours the sonics will improve greatly.
 
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Lucian C

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I agree with other respected colleagues when they delineated your power amp is okay. Because with the same amp and speakers the sound was terrific before you moved to existing residence. My music room is slightly larger than your space. However I have placed ML in front of short wall. Please do try placing motion 60 in front of patio exit and curtains. You can experiment with this position to see if sonics improve. For a day place system in front of patio exit and curtains. Poor sound in the mids and lack of detail is because of suboptimal placement of system within room. Another reason for poor sound is Motion 60 drivers need run in or break in. I listen to Motion 15 in my second room. When they were brand new the sonics were great. Soon after the sound deteriorated because the drivers needed break in. Slowly the sound got better again. Same applies to your amp. Capacitors inside amp will take 2 to 3 months to reach peak performance. I hope with passage of time and usage hours the sonics will improve greatly.
Yes, the ampl has 2 year old and speackers 1 year,.
You have right, in previos apartment I use longer side of the room, with same ampl and speackers., and I can't notice this problem.
 
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