More output with no double down vs less output with double down

[Theo32]

Theoretically, which amplifier drives best, to low or medium listening levels, a ML hybrid (e.g. Spire, Summit, Montis, Expression etc.) (sensitivity: 91dB, Impedance: 0.8/20kHz);
a) An amplifier that doesn't double down, but delivers 300W/8Ohm, 430W/4Ohm, stable at 2Ohm loads (like the Mark Levinson 532H), or
b) An amplifier that delivers 135W/8Ohm, 270W/4Ohm, stable at 2Ohm loads (like the new Mark Levinson 5302)?

Notice that in both cases the amp manufacturer doesn't state exact output at 2Ohm, and doesn't say anything about <2Ohm loads. Actually, the 532H which I've been using for the last 5 years to drive my Spires, is stable with them. However, I am not happy with the reproduction of high frequencies, which seem to be faint and weak.

Comment: Traditionally high quality manufactures like Mark Levinson, Krell, Parasound, Electrocompaniet, Simaudio, PassLabbs etc. that used to manufacture power amplifiers that doubled output down from 8 to 2 Ohm, do not make new models with this specification. I think this is becoming a common issue to ML owners or future owners, who need to know the amp output in very low loads.
Theodore

 

[ttocs]

Should be fine either way. If I were choosing, I'd pick the doubler.

With that said, I prefer tubes these days. Right now, this week, I've got my Krell re-attached to the Expressions while I'm doing lots of testing and need to do a lot of turning on and off, and it's just not as life-like in the soundstage. Sounds great, and has a lot more top frequencies, but just doesn't sound as real. So with my tube amps set to Triode Mode and using KT-120 tubes the power is a little over 70 watts of euphoria at any volume, as high as you can stand.

There is a prominent "local" dealer, Abt Electronics - local but national, that is a Masterpiece Dealer and they highlight the ML room with Mark Levinson amps. Years ago they used to be a Krell dealer also, which is where I bought my Krell, but now it's all Levinson and McIntosh and they use both to drive the ML's.

 

[twich54]

assuming both amps operating within spec as advertised and no issues I doubt very much if you could tell the difference.

 

[Leporello]

Theoretically, which amplifier drives best, to low or medium listening levels, a ML hybrid (e.g. Spire, Summit, Montis, Expression etc.) (sensitivity: 91dB, Impedance: 0.8/20kHz);
a) An amplifier that doesn't double down, but delivers 300W/8Ohm, 430W/4Ohm, stable at 2Ohm loads (like the Mark Levinson 532H), or
b) An amplifier that delivers 135W/8Ohm, 270W/4Ohm, stable at 2Ohm loads (like the new Mark Levinson 5302)?

Notice that in both cases the amp manufacturer doesn't state exact output at 2Ohm, and doesn't say anything about <2Ohm loads. Actually, the 532H which I've been using for the last 5 years to drive my Spires, is stable with them. However, I am not happy with the reproduction of high frequencies, which seem to be faint and weak.

Comment: Traditionally high quality manufactures like Mark Levinson, Krell, Parasound, Electrocompaniet, Simaudio, PassLabbs etc. that used to manufacture power amplifiers that doubled output down from 8 to 2 Ohm, do not make new models with this specification. I think this is becoming a common issue to ML owners or future owners, who need to know the amp output in very low loads.
Theodore

 

[Leporello]

If you're talking theoretically, doubling at 4 versus 8 means lower effective source impedance, which is closer to ideal amplifier behavior. It means flatter frequency response where your panel dips down to insanely low magnitudes. Doubling the overall available power, other things being equal, means a 3dB increase in available maximum loudness, barely audible. So theoretically, the one with lower output impedance is better.

As Yogi Berra is alleged to have said, in theory theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're not.

 

[spkrdctr]

assuming both amps operating within spec as advertised and no issues I doubt very much if you could tell the difference.

I agree. He mentioned low level volume listening. For that you are listening at 1 watt. There is no earthly reason to buy high powered amps if you do not listen at concert levels. 91db sensitive speakers are what is doing the trick. The fact that a speaker has an impedance that dips down to 2 ohms for a very small frequency band is not important. You can easily take a 100 watt/channel amp and use it for 2 ohm loads if your listening at lower volumes. It would mean that at 2 ohms you would be using a whopping 4 watts of power out of the 100 available. Even with peaks you would never see over 16 to 32 watts on some dynamic material. Really a 91 db sensitive speaker takes a huge load off of the amp. You can drive them with tube amps and or 50 watt/channel amps. There is no "magic" involved in the process. For me, just buy whichever one is cheaper! They are both WAY over powered for you needs. Good Luck!

 

[ttocs]

I agree. He mentioned low level volume listening. For that you are listening at 1 watt. There is no earthly reason to buy high powered amps if you do not listen at concert levels. 91db sensitive speakers are what is doing the trick. The fact that a speaker has an impedance that dips down to 2 ohms for a very small frequency band is not important. You can easily take a 100 watt/channel amp and use it for 2 ohm loads if your listening at lower volumes. It would mean that at 2 ohms you would be using a whopping 4 watts of power out of the 100 available. Even with peaks you would never see over 16 to 32 watts on some dynamic material. Really a 91 db sensitive speaker takes a huge load off of the amp. You can drive them with tube amps and or 50 watt/channel amps. There is no "magic" involved in the process. For me, just buy whichever one is cheaper! They are both WAY over powered for you needs. Good Luck!

This is an interesting take on how much power is needed. Figure out the highest peak power and work backwards to determine the maximum listening volume for any given amp.

 

[spkrdctr]

This is an interesting take on how much power is needed. Figure out the highest peak power and work backwards to determine the maximum listening volume for any given amp.

But remember, he said he listens at low volume levels and that is probably around 70db. Give or take. The power required is so low, you don't even have to do the math. Now if the speakers were 84db that would be different. He will have a ton of power for low level listening.

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

I wonder if Theo is still around? Be interested to see what he ended up going with and what he thought.

-Geoff

 

[msimanyi]

I'm kinda curious too. I wonder if this is panel degradation that he happened to notice, vs an amp problem. His Mark Levinson 532H should sound great and have ample power...

 

[wink]

One of the things I loved about Bob Carver and his Sunfire amps…he wasn’t afraid to put his 2ohm specs right out in front of the manual.

 

[JonFo]

One of the things I loved about Bob Carver and his Sunfire amps…he wasn’t afraid to put his 2ohm specs right out in front of the manual.

And I can confirm they handle direct-driving the huge Monolith panels just fine, and they direct-drive (no passive XO) my Sequel and SL3XC panels today. The Monoliths get the Sanders ESL amp now.

To the OP, I'd go for the amp that doubles, even if lower top-end power. As others noted, not likely to be challenging even the lower output model when running at low to moderate levels.
That said, frequency balance is often best adjusted first with placement and room acoustics treatments.

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

I'd go a step further and make sure the amp has a 2 ohm rating. A lot of them won't rate that low, but sometimes the magazines will run the load tests down that far if they think it can handle it.

One of my bucket list amps is a Rotel RB-1090. It's not rated by Rotel under 4 ohms, but John Atkinson at Stereophile got it to produce 2825 Watts into a 1 Ohm load at 1% distortion. Now that is some power! You can get them for around $1000 used, too. Just make sure they are not "Too" used...

-Geoff

 

[wink]

And I can confirm they handle direct-driving the huge Monolith panels just fine, and they direct-drive (no passive XO) my Sequel and SL3XC panels today. The Monoliths get the Sanders ESL amp now.

To the OP, I'd go for the amp that doubles, even if lower top-end power. As others noted, not likely to be challenging even the lower output model when running at low to moderate levels.
That said, frequency balance is often best adjusted first with placement and room acoustics treatments.

I agree with the doubling of power, and I will add to pay attention to the current output rating also. Anything over 100 amperes of current will control even the biggest Logans really well.

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

I agree with the doubling of power, and I will add to pay attention to the current output rating also. Anything over 100 amperes of current will control even the biggest Logans really well.

Make sure you have a good electrician on retainer too!

-Geoff

 

[wink]

Make sure you have a good electrician on retainer too!

-Geoff

I’m speaking of current output, not current input from the wall.

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

I stand by my statement.

 

[Robert D]

I stand by my statement.

How does someone know what kind of electrical lime to run to a home theater, and how many are needed to be optimal?

My whole system is plugged into a single Furman power conditioner and one 15 amp line. Got a fairly beefy Aragon 8008 amp on it too, along with everything else. No apparent issues.

I do notice that in my study, when I use my laser printer the lights in the room flash from regular to dim in a cycle.
Hoping to build a new home in the next few years and would like to educate myself.

 

[wink]

I stand by my statement.

My Coda Continuum #8 v2 produces up to 150 amperes of current output. Are you saying I need to have an electrician on retainer because of this rating??

 

[ttocs]

How does someone know what kind of electrical lime to run to a home theater, and how many are needed to be optimal?

My whole system is plugged into a single Furman power conditioner and one 15 amp line. Got a fairly beefy Aragon 8008 amp on it too, along with everything else. No apparent issues.

I do notice that in my study, when I use my laser printer the lights in the room flash from regular to dim in a cycle.
Hoping to build a new home in the next few years and would like to educate myself.

I went a little nuts on outlets when I updated the electrical 5 years ago. There are seven 20A circuits for the audio/video system. The lessor items are plugged into a couple Panamax M-5400PM and both are using one 20A outlet. And the higher wattage stuff, amps, subs, Expressions, are distributed amongst the rest.

I have the distribution setup such that when listening to two channel music the items that are being used have the most amperage available to them.