Measurements on Summit!

[Mr.theory]

Hello everybody (new in da' club)!
I have been searching the net for impulse response measurements of the Summit's for over a year but haven't seen any!..
I have been in contact with ML about this but they haven't got any either!(?)
Seems very strange concidering THEY HAVE BUILDT THE SPEAKERS!!
If I owned a pair it wouldn't take much more than the neccesary recordingtime before they were fully documented with all measurements posted!

I am now using the DSP corrected Canton Digital 1.1, which sounds terrible in ordinary livingrooms but probably one of the very best speakers in the world concerning impulse response and soundstaging in extreme ones!
The problem with this speaker-idea is that the DSP must be set to correct a certain position in front of the speakers (in the manufacturers dead chamber of course), so the off axis response gets terrible regarding both time and frequency which partly is why they don't work in normal livingrooms.
They also wanted a bit to much when they integrated the "room correction feature" which is a technique that DOESN'T work and never will (also concerns TacT RCS and all other fake-"correction" systems), that's another story however..

If anyone has impulse measurements, please let me know!
If the Summit's perform similar (or only a bit poorer) of what my Digital 1.1's does, I'll invest in a pair right away!

Kind Regards
/M.t
Pictures of listening room project, WinG II (Explanation is coming..)

 

[risabet]

This actually reeks of a TROLL but what the hell.

Why would you buy a speaker based on a measurement? Measurements aren't music and never will be. The point of a audio system is to reproduce recorded music, not measurements. Does it sound good or not? That is the question!

 

[tonyc]

Hello everybody (new in da' club)!
I have been searching the net for impulse response measurements of the Summit's for over a year but haven't seen any!..
I have been in contact with ML about this but they haven't got any either!(?)
Seems very strange concidering THEY HAVE BUILDT THE SPEAKERS!!
If I owned a pair it wouldn't take much more than the neccesary recordingtime before they were fully documented with all measurements posted!

I am now using the DSP corrected Canton Digital 1.1, which sounds terrible in ordinary livingrooms but probably one of the very best speakers in the world concerning impulse response and soundstaging in extreme ones!
The problem with this speaker-idea is that the DSP must be set to correct a certain position in front of the speakers (in the manufacturers dead chamber of course), so the off axis response gets terrible regarding both time and frequency which partly is why they don't work in normal livingrooms.
They also wanted a bit to much when they integrated the "room correction feature" which is a technique that DOESN'T work and never will (also concerns TacT RCS and all other fake-"correction" systems), that's another story however..

If anyone has impulse measurements, please let me know!
If the Summit's perform similar (or only a bit poorer) of what my Digital 1.1's does, I'll invest in a pair right away!

Kind Regards
/M.t

Huh? Measurements? Would measurements not be room dependent? I believe there is more variation in each of our ears than in most quality equipment (even speakers and cartridges). I do not spend much time measuring the frequency response of my speakers. I do spend alot of time listening.

 

[socialxray]

The reason why Martin Logan does not give measurements is because dipoles measure very poorly because of the nature of the dipole radiation. This of course does not correlate to how they sound.

 

[twich54]

If anyone has impulse measurements, please let me know!
If the Summit's perform similar (or only a bit poorer) of what my Digital 1.1's does, I'll invest in a pair right away!

Kind Regards
/M.t

Impulse Measurements ????!!!!! simply stated it goes like this....... go listen and upon listening your first "impulse" will be to buy, buy, buy ,buy, buy !!

I know Sweeden dosen't have Summitt's hanging out on every street corner to audition, but NOBODY I know, of sane mind and body would ever spend that kind of $$ without letting their ears be the judge.

 

[JonFo]

The reason why Martin Logan does not give measurements is because dipoles measure very poorly because of the nature of the dipole radiation. This of course does not correlate to how they sound.

Absolutely correct. Plus, impulse is just part of the overall picture and does not really reflect (no pun intended) the in-room experience.

A summit placed in a good room, with appropriate treatments will sound very very good. That same summit placed incorrectly or in too live a room, will likely not be as impressive. Same impulse response.

If you want to see some impulse responses, look at my SL3XC thread, I took a few shoots of the SL3 panel I used. It’s relatively indicative of what any ESL will do.
Notice the rear wave bounce from the wall behind the speaker, that tends to impact the perception of clarity, but it also provides the spaciousness these speakers are renowned for.

At the prices of these speakers, arrange for in-home audition and decide for yourself if this is what you want in your space.

 

[Mr.theory]

Why would you buy a speaker based on a measurement? Measurements aren't music and never will be. The point of a audio system is to reproduce recorded music, not measurements. Does it sound good or not? That is the question!

Wrong! Measurements can tell just about everything about how a speaker will sound IN A GOOD ROOM of course. An exeption would be if the speakers measured has more than one driver-location to cover the HF part (200Hz and up). Such speakers can show a good transient response which actually is a sum of sounds coming from different locations. This phenomena is no problem for the ears to recognize, but a mic can't. Another situation where measurements and listening experiences can differ from SPEAKER-measurement data is if you listen to a certain speaker in a ordinary livingroom. Here the sound are a very complex combination of the speakers sound send in many directions and not at least combfilter effects and standing waves from the room!! If the impulse response of a speaker is a mess, there is absolutely no way it can reproduce music correct either! Yes, they can tell a lovely story of music but never the truth!!
/M.t

 

[Mr.theory]

Huh? Measurements? Would measurements not be room dependent? I believe there is more variation in each of our ears than in most quality equipment (even speakers and cartridges). I do not spend much time measuring the frequency response of my speakers. I do spend alot of time listening.

The initial impulse response remains the same in all rooms as long as you don't place some object between the speakers and your ears. Listening chairs can also distort the initial response d.t very early arriving reflections. In typical livingrooms, the impulse response is the same as a professional measurement reading for the first 2-3mS, good rooms have the same reading for 20-30mS or even more! Our ears differ, that's correct but no ears appreciates distorted time response! The differencies lies more in the frequency domain and what such charecteristics we prefer. Without measuring equipment, my room wouldn't be possible to build and since that by far has given the most important results concerning soundstage, transparancy etc i'll gladly keep spending some time measuring!
/M.t

 

[Mr.theory]

The reason why Martin Logan does not give measurements is because dipoles measure very poorly because of the nature of the dipole radiation. This of course does not correlate to how they sound.

That's strange, I have looked at measurments done on the Odyssey's and they measured very good. Let's say it was impossible to find a point somewhere in front of the speakers where they measured ok they wouldn't either sound ok!! In a good room that's really the same thing! I can't belive that serious people interested in HIFI don't understand exactly how much the room acoustics destroys when not controlled. That's the only conclusion one can make after 24 hours in this forum, sad.
/M.t

 

[twich54]

That's the only conclusion one can make after 24 hours in this forum, sad.
/M.t

Hey dude, I got a "theory"......... most of us would rather listen to MUSIC then your impulse BS !!!!!!!!!!! I'm sorry you don't have the subjective listening opportunities we have here in the good ole' USA, for most of us on this forum know it's the MUSIC that matters most !! Something tells me you are one of those audiophiles that would rather listen to his "equipment", insted of the music !!

 

[Mr.theory]

Impulse Measurements ????!!!!! simply stated it goes like this....... go listen and upon listening your first "impulse" will be to buy, buy, buy ,buy, buy !!

I know Sweeden dosen't have Summitt's hanging out on every street corner to audition, but NOBODY I know, of sane mind and body would ever spend that kind of $$ without letting their ears be the judge.

In order to listen to them I would have to buy a pair. I haven't yet seen one single listening room in sweden that has good enough acoustics to evaluate speakers in this price range. Listening to similar in a HIFI-store gave absolutely nothing, the only thing I heard was reflections, reflections and a bunch of standing waves. The perfect pinpoint performance that I'm used to in my own listening room was totally missing in this standard room "filled with mud". The only thing that sounded ok was listening to "HIFI-porn"-albums like Norah Jones etc that has so little acoustic information recorded that it surrvived the listening rooms own acoustic info..
"Buy, buy buy.." feels very tempting still, thanx!
/M.t

 

[Mr.theory]

Hey dude, I got a "theory"......... most of us would rather listen to MUSIC then your impulse BS !!!!!!!!!!! I'm sorry you don't have the subjective listening opportunities we have here in the good ole' USA, for most of us on this forum know it's the MUSIC that matters most !! Something tells me you are one of those audiophiles that would rather listen to his "equipment", insted of the music !!

First of all, I've been a music producer and song writer for about ten years now so I know I love music. I don't know what's supposed to be creative with enjoying music and hate measurements but that seems to be standard. A hint: if you love music and don't care how it sounds like you can use a pair of computer speakers from Creative, thats creative!
/M.t

 

[Mr.theory]

Absolutely correct. Plus, impulse is just part of the overall picture and does not really reflect (no pun intended) the in-room experience.

A summit placed in a good room, with appropriate treatments will sound very very good. That same summit placed incorrectly or in too live a room, will likely not be as impressive. Same impulse response.

If you want to see some impulse responses, look at my SL3XC thread, I took a few shoots of the SL3 panel I used. It’s relatively indicative of what any ESL will do.
Notice the rear wave bounce from the wall behind the speaker, that tends to impact the perception of clarity, but it also provides the spaciousness these speakers are renowned for.

At the prices of these speakers, arrange for in-home audition and decide for yourself if this is what you want in your space.

Of course I use a specially designed listening room with optimized acoustics, I assumed everyone with more expensive equipment did that (wrong of me). My room has a almost completely free window of about 15mS (first diffused reflections coming from behind). The speakers U end is designed to be dead down to about 80Hz. In this room my experiences is that the impulse response of the speakers is what makes different speakers sound different! Very nice to hear that you haven't forgot the "forgotten link", the room..
Regards
/M.e

 

[tonyc]

Hello everybody (new in da' club)!
I have been searching the net for impulse response measurements of the Summit's for over a year but haven't seen any!..
I have been in contact with ML about this but they haven't got any either!(?)
Seems very strange concidering THEY HAVE BUILDT THE SPEAKERS!!
If I owned a pair it wouldn't take much more than the neccesary recordingtime before they were fully documented with all measurements posted!

I am now using the DSP corrected Canton Digital 1.1, which sounds terrible in ordinary livingrooms but probably one of the very best speakers in the world concerning impulse response and soundstaging in extreme ones!
The problem with this speaker-idea is that the DSP must be set to correct a certain position in front of the speakers (in the manufacturers dead chamber of course), so the off axis response gets terrible regarding both time and frequency which partly is why they don't work in normal livingrooms.
They also wanted a bit to much when they integrated the "room correction feature" which is a technique that DOESN'T work and never will (also concerns TacT RCS and all other fake-"correction" systems), that's another story however..

If anyone has impulse measurements, please let me know!
If the Summit's perform similar (or only a bit poorer) of what my Digital 1.1's does, I'll invest in a pair right away!

Kind Regards
/M.t

I believe at least one speaker company did publish impulse measurements for their speakers back in the 90's. I think it was Dunleavy. I thought their speakers sounded pretty good when I heard them, but I ended up buying Apogees because they sounded better even though they did not measure as well. I remain shocked that you would purchase a speaker based on measurements.

 

[Pcar928fan]

In order to listen to them I would have to buy a pair. I haven't yet seen one single listening room in sweden that has good enough acoustics to evaluate speakers in this price range. Listening to similar in a HIFI-store gave absolutely nothing, the only thing I heard was reflections, reflections and a bunch of standing waves. The perfect pinpoint performance that I'm used to in my own listening room was totally missing in this standard room "filled with mud". The only thing that sounded ok was listening to "HIFI-porn"-albums like Norah Jones etc that has so little acoustic information recorded that it surrvived the listening rooms own acoustic info..
"Buy, buy buy.." feels very tempting still, thanx!
/M.t

Sounds like you might need to find another forum to enjoy that also enjoys your current choice of speakers maybe...

 

[audioraptured]

measurements on Summit?

Mr. Theory, good evening. Where are you from in Sweden as my wife is Finish and I have spent the last 32 years vacationing there for the summer and during Christmas and naturally have been to your country many times?
Perhaps you could post a picture of the room you have and what your equipment looks like with a small discription so that more people would be able to see clearly what your are talking about in your thread.
How about adding descriptions of some of the music that you have produced, along with a sample and the names of the artists for all to enjoy. The artists will not mind I am sure.
From the collective amount of experiences of all reading this, (and naturally the pictures you show), the more able someone will be able to help you with your question; wouldn't you agree?
I am sorry that the demo rooms and set-ups have not been to your liking. What were all the brands of equipment and the speakers you have listened to recently?
Waiting anxiously for those photos and some music and artists; so all the best to you Mr. Theory.

 

[twich54]

I don't know what's supposed to be creative with enjoying music and hate measurements but that seems to be standard. A hint: if you love music and don't care how it sounds like you can use a pair of computer speakers from Creative, thats creative!
/M.t

Mr Theory, I'm not exactly sure what your point is but I gather you do "love the music" ! That's good ! In a nut shell what were all trying to say is measurements whether they are taken objectively or subjectively don't tell the WHOLE story, for if they did none of us would fall in love with the musicality of tubes, as an example !

Have a good day !

 

[lugano]

I haven't yet seen one single listening room in sweden that has good enough acoustics to evaluate speakers in this price range. Listening to similar in a HIFI-store gave absolutely nothing, the only thing I heard was reflections, reflections and a bunch of standing waves.

There is a way to enjoy music, if you only hear reflections and standing waves instead of notes. Headphones. AKG K 701 might be the solution. And Head-Fi.org the right forum.

 

[IWalker]

I think there's a middle ground here. Measurements tell us a lot, and can help a lot in terms of positioning and configuration. It can even tell us a lot regarding why things have their given sonic characteristics. Being an avid DIYer, measurements are very important to effectively executing a plan. Only rarely does someone execute a design that they think will be terrible (cause if they thought it would be terrible, why would they spend the time/money to make it) and have it turn out great. Thus, there is mathematical theory and measurement behind every great speaker.

Individual preference certainly comes into play...as the goal of listening is not always what people think it is "to accurately reproduce the recorded signal." It just isn't. It's to enjoy what you're hearing. If you were in the audience at a concert, and the microphone was right where you were sitting, then you would have a reasonable point of reference. But that is almost never the case, so the ability to move speakers, and adjust time delays and frequency response (all measurements) allows for the approximation of different listening conditions (farther back, closer in, below the stage, above the stage, etc.) that happen to sound the best to each one of us. You don't need to have a big kit to measure things...your ears are a measurement device of their own...they just generally don't have the precision or ability to quantify exactly what they're measuring, so other equipment can be useful.

As a tool of sound reproduction, being accurate is an admirable goal...within reason...but noone on either side of the fence really has to convince the others what is better. Noone is right, It's a preference.

 

[lugano]

I think there's a middle ground here. Measurements tell us a lot, and can help a lot in terms of positioning and configuration

Of course, IWalker, of course. We do read mesurements, and with ML's things like impedance are really important. But the reaction here was a self-defensive one. We've been troll-free for a long time now here at the ML club, and a newcomer who tells us in his 4th post that we "don't understand exactly how much the room acoustics destroys when not controlled. That's the only conclusion one can make after 24 hours in this forum, sad. " and brags about miliseconds just triggers the troll radar. Of course we know about room acoustics, it's just that we're married with kids and have to adjust to that, too. It's been hard for me to see my wife smile again after placing 9 loudspeakers in our living room, out of which 2 are big subwoofers and 2 are ML CLS - and I guess I'm not alone in this. I'm not rich enough to have a dedicated room only for music listening, and sometimes I wonder if I really would opt for something like that, even if I could. Music is not an island, music is always on, everywhere in the house, bathrooms and outside in the garden included. And in the office I've got 400 watt speakers and a receiver connected to my Mac powering them, even if the company's policy is that no music is allowed - but then I'm special.
Music is part of my life, part of my daily food, and I could not live without it, I could not be productive at work without it and I could not experience it egoistically neither. But I stretch myself only as wide as the common sense allows possible, without becoming a nuisance for the other humans sharing the same time and space frame. So let's be realistic and let it be music. F**k the msecs...