Martin Logan vs. Other Speakers

[bikerneil]

I have now owned my ML Montis speakers for almost five years. I spent dozens and dozens of hours optimizing the location of the speakers and then lots more hours making home-made acoustic treatments to improve the sound in my room. I totally love the experience in my room. I tend to listen to and favor female vocals as my ML's seem to excel best with this music genre.

I particularly love the soundstage and the musical clarity of my current set-up. When I'm sitting in my front and center, preferred seat the soundstage is hard to beat.

All that said, I am a little disappointed in two aspects of my set-up and that is:
1. The extremely narrow sweet spot for the best listening position. In 99.9% of the cases this is not an issue, as I am usually alone when I listen to music. Occasionally my wife will join me, but usually it's just me.
2. Lows - My ML's struggle with really deep bass. One of my favorite songs (London Grammar - Hey Now) sounds fantastic until I get to the deep bass portion, and then the music absolutely destroys my speakers making them vibrate so much I have to turn them down.

Now that the audiophile bug has fully infected me I am beginning to wonder - "am I missing an even better speaker experience?" I have done lots of reading on other speakers and am learning about dynamic vs what I have right now and I want to explore some other speakers to see if I can make another step increase better. I have now been to two different high-end audiophile stores and I sat there for an hour at both stores listening to really high end setups that I did not think sounded as good as my ML setup.

I know that speakers are a very personal choice. For me - I tend to love female vocals the most, but I would also like to listen to more rock music than I currently do. My room size is about 13' wide x 18' deep. I have McIntosh components (C2600 preamp, MC452 solid state main amp). My main source is a high res music server.

So my question for some of the more seasoned listeners on this forum is: have you come from other speakers and what are your findings on these matters?

 

[Robert D]

Do you have a subwoofer? If not, then you definitely need one. On my setup I use a Marantz receiver with Audyssey to adjust everything. I end up having the crossover set at around 80 to 100 HZ for my mains which are ML Prodigy speakers. The sub takes care of all the rest. Your Montis could probably do great with midbass.

 

[twich54]

Having owned the predecessor to the Montis (Spire) I can understand your deep bass concern. So as Robert suggests and I concur a sub (or two) would help out alot. I employ a Velodyne DD-15

As for the narrow sweet spot, it is what it is !!

 

[bikerneil]

I'm fine with (and understand) the sweet spot issue.

I was hoping to hear from some others on how they ended up with Martin Logans - after trying some other high end speakers. Have others looked at moving on to other brands or types, but decided to stay with their Martin Logans? I know that many audiophile folks are constantly moving up in their systems and I wanted to see how others paths have led them to their current Martin Logans. Did they look at other speakers and decide to stay with ML? Did they start with some beautiful dynamic speakers and end up here with ML's? Did they use to have ML and eventually moved on to something else (I think that was the case with TomDac the moderator?)

Believe me, I am a newbie and always learn from any post or threads on this site.

Thanks.

 

[Robert D]

My Martin Logan Prodigies are my first electrostat speaker and I have to say that I cant imagine having anything other than that for the front 2 channels. I have the Theater i too for the center and its great as well.

I have thought off and on about trying out Magnepan speakers, but never pulled the trigger.

 

[MOON]

I will be replacing my Odyssey's within the next year sometime. I recently bought a new amp and spotted some Focal Sopra 2's in orange which looked stunning. I didn't have the time to listen to them while getting the amp. My room is similar to your 12x20ft.

A month later I made the 2 hour trip to hear them. The speakers were a great deal money wise. Long story short, I didn't like them at all compared to the Odyssey's. I then listened to a pair of Sonus faber Olympia 3's which sounded better but not enough to motivate me. With that experience I am now looking at either Martin logan Summit X or 13A's and have gotten rid of the notion of listening go other brands.

Incidents, there have been 5 sets recently of the Sopra 2's on an audio mart here at significantly rock bottom prices and same with Kanta's.

 

[Bevensee]

I am using Vantages, which are, I guess, the little brother to the Spires, and I also use a sub. Mine is a REL, and it works really well. I let the RoomPerfect in my Lyngdorf TDAI2170 take care of the sub/main speaker integration.

Regarding the sweet-spot, I started today experimenting with extreme toe-in ("toe-over"). It helps with the narrow sweet spot, but it may be at a small price for the sound in the sweet-spot. I am still dialing in and fine-tuning. So far, I am pleased. I started another thread on this topic ("Toe-in vs tor-over").

The other day, I listened to a pair of B&W 804D3. Did not like them at all. That tweeter tweeting tweets in a world of it's own. Ughh! Not my cuppa-tea!

 

[bikerneil]

Thank you to the posts above. That's been my experience as well. I have now stopped in to 4 different high-end audiophile stores to hear their setups. I have seen systems that each cost well over $100K and they did not come close to how good mine sounds (with the exception of my bass issue). The last store I visited yesterday had a pair of Vandersteens and they sounded fantastic - producing the same clarity and soundstage as my Montis, while offering bass that shook the room (very impressive).

I am still in love with my sound quality, clarity, and sound stage after hearing the systems I have heard so far (though the Vandersteens were intriguing...).

For now, I will focus on learning more about subs and how I would introduce and control one with my components.

 

[Ticat]

Previous to owning my ML hybrid speakers I had quite a few sets over the years. The best of my systems were Quad 57's(talk about a narrow sweet spot!) in a tri-amplified configuration using two Hegeman subs, electronic X-overs, powered by two solid state and one tube amp (H&H, Modifed ST 70 and Quad 33)

I am in no way trying to dissuade you of your music enjoying dreams BUT...

My experience with subs is a love hate relationship. Love the room pressure...hate the phase issues, standing wave/room resonance issues and the not so perfect interaction with the main speakers.

Extensive, professionally designed room and wall treatment (starting with but not limited, to the construction of a room specific to Audio including: dedicated electrical; upgraded wallboard/insulation and custom framing), ARC and electronic crossovers all help but once one issue is corrected, another pops up (to widely varying degrees of irk-some-ness)... thus it all becomes a moving target.

Sadly, after many years and at some expense, I have resigned myself to just the standard hybrid and will forego the "pant moving" pressure of the bottom octaves (also high SPL).

Go ahead and do the "Sub thing"... just be careful what you wish for...

Life Is Made Up of a Series of Compromises...

 

[Hear Here]

I have now owned my ML Montis speakers for almost five years. I spent dozens and dozens of hours optimizing the location of the speakers and then lots more hours making home-made acoustic treatments to improve the sound in my room. I totally love the experience in my room. I tend to listen to and favor female vocals as my ML's seem to excel best with this music genre.

I particularly love the soundstage and the musical clarity of my current set-up. When I'm sitting in my front and center, preferred seat the soundstage is hard to beat.

All that said, I am a little disappointed in two aspects of my set-up and that is:
1. The extremely narrow sweet spot for the best listening position. In 99.9% of the cases this is not an issue, as I am usually alone when I listen to music. Occasionally my wife will join me, but usually it's just me.
2. Lows - My ML's struggle with really deep bass. One of my favorite songs (London Grammar - Hey Now) sounds fantastic until I get to the deep bass portion, and then the music absolutely destroys my speakers making them vibrate so much I have to turn them down.

Now that the audiophile bug has fully infected me I am beginning to wonder - "am I missing an even better speaker experience?" I have done lots of reading on other speakers and am learning about dynamic vs what I have right now and I want to explore some other speakers to see if I can make another step increase better. I have now been to two different high-end audiophile stores and I sat there for an hour at both stores listening to really high end setups that I did not think sounded as good as my ML setup.

I know that speakers are a very personal choice. For me - I tend to love female vocals the most, but I would also like to listen to more rock music than I currently do. My room size is about 13' wide x 18' deep. I have McIntosh components (C2600 preamp, MC452 solid state main amp). My main source is a high res music server.

So my question for some of the more seasoned listeners on this forum is: have you come from other speakers and what are your findings on these matters?

Hi Neil

I was very interested to read your post. Like you, I enjoy female vocals and like you I was considering a change in speakers last year.

My experience was from a rather different starting point, but it may be helpful in your search. Since about 2002 I've had Avantgarde Uno horn speakers, but I thought it was time for a change as the speakers were 17 years old and a change is as good as a rest, so they say!

After quite a bit of research and after listening to a friend's surprisingly good Quad 2905 speakers, I bought a used pair but knowing that I wouldn't want to keep these "barn doors" in my living room. The room is large and roughly semi-circular about 945 sq ft and with floor-to-ceiling glazing on most of the curved wall. The speakers are placed mid-room, so 12-15 feet of open space behind them. The Quads sounded remarkable good even in this location, so I decided to look for much better looking and semi-transparent electrostatics as I'd always thought these would sound great. My choice was Martin Logan or Blanko-Nu, a small Dutch company.

I read about, asked about here, and demo'd at a London showroom the speaker I thought would be ideal for my room - the ML Expression 13A. I ordered a pair and spent a few weeks adjusting position, tilt, toe-in, etc but I was slightly disappointed with the sound, specially when my Quad owner friend came round and we did some serious speaker comparisons - I still had the Avantgardes. Both he and I agreed, as did other friends who were invited to comment, that the AGs sounded appreciably better. A massive disappointment for me after spending so much on new speakers and being told (even by people on this forum) they would sound great in my room. Sadly they didn't and I've since concluded that MLs need a back wall that's not more than 6 or 7 feet behind them to salvage and take advantage of the 50% of sound that is projected backwards - the 13As have forward and back firing 10" bass drivers.

OK, what to do? I put the MLs for sale and happened to find a pair of Avantgarde Duos from about 2006 for a good price. Now comparing Avantgarde horns with ML electrostatics in some ways is a chalk and cheese situation, but they have things in common. Both are very directional with wonderfully realistic imaging, so this may be of significance to you. Both are spectacularly fast and offer lifelike and exciting music. The horns don't need a back or side wall and don't suffer from closeness of such walls, so easier to place in my difficult room. In the showroom, the ML offered excellent imaging, which I understand you appreciate - so do the AGs. Imaging wasn't the problem when I got the speakers installed, it was just that they didn't excite in anything like the way the AGs do, although I put this down to the MLs being unhappy mid-room.

Back to your question, if you have a "conventional" room and enjoy your old MLs, then perhaps consider new MLs that offer much improved bass. The London Grammar track you mention has prodigious bass starting at about 1.20 although it's not particularly loud - just deep. I play this on my AG Duos and things in the room vibrate but not the speakers! I could suggest you try Avantgarde speakers, but they also have a relatively small sweet spot and you may want to replace your (presumably) powerful amp for a low powered on, although I now use a 180 watt amp with my 107 dB Duos. Incidentally I bought a Sanders Magtech for powering the MLs, but that's been sold now.

So, if you are out and about auditioning speakers and enjoy the type of wonderfully detailed sound that electrostatics offer and the sense that the female singer is sat on your equipment rack singing just for you, then please take a listen to horn speakers that share this feature. Good used Avantgarde Unos or Duos are excellent but don't go for early ones with 7" sub drivers or 10" ones with foam surrounds. Look for ones with twin 10" roll surround drivers. Even ones from about 2002 are still so good they may embarrass your MLs or even newer ones although ML's placed as they should be are excellent of course.

Let us know how things go. Peter

PS - I don't believe in subs for 2 channel listening from a cost viewpoint or from an integration one either. If you buy subs you are paying for extra cabinetry and extra amps. Better to spend that money on better floor-standing speakers that offer as good (and better integrated) bass than smaller speakers with separate subs. Just my opinion!

 

[bikerneil]

Peter - I have seen your system before and it is BEAUTIFUL. I've heard spectacular things about the sound from those Avantgard's. I'm sure it sounds as great as it looks. My problem with these speakers is they will not pass the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) issue. I totally hear all your points and will consider them before I spend any $$$ on the subs.

If I had a basement with a big room, I would go with the beautiful Avantgards, but unfortunately I just dont think my room is big enough and it's too close to the heart of our house (where WAF is important).

My next system will handle that portion of the London Grammar song, and similar songs from artists like Billie Eilish. That London Grammar song just destroys my current setup.

Thank you for your very carefully stated points above. I appreciate them, it's exactly the kind of input I seek.

 

[roberto]

I have now owned my ML Montis speakers for almost five years. I spent dozens and dozens of hours optimizing the location of the speakers and then lots more hours making home-made acoustic treatments to improve the sound in my room. I totally love the experience in my room. I tend to listen to and favor female vocals as my ML's seem to excel best with this music genre.

I particularly love the soundstage and the musical clarity of my current set-up. When I'm sitting in my front and center, preferred seat the soundstage is hard to beat.

All that said, I am a little disappointed in two aspects of my set-up and that is:
1. The extremely narrow sweet spot for the best listening position. In 99.9% of the cases this is not an issue, as I am usually alone when I listen to music. Occasionally my wife will join me, but usually it's just me.
2. Lows - My ML's struggle with really deep bass. One of my favorite songs (London Grammar - Hey Now) sounds fantastic until I get to the deep bass portion, and then the music absolutely destroys my speakers making them vibrate so much I have to turn them down.

Now that the audiophile bug has fully infected me I am beginning to wonder - "am I missing an even better speaker experience?" I have done lots of reading on other speakers and am learning about dynamic vs what I have right now and I want to explore some other speakers to see if I can make another step increase better. I have now been to two different high-end audiophile stores and I sat there for an hour at both stores listening to really high end setups that I did not think sounded as good as my ML setup.

I know that speakers are a very personal choice. For me - I tend to love female vocals the most, but I would also like to listen to more rock music than I currently do. My room size is about 13' wide x 18' deep. I have McIntosh components (C2600 preamp, MC452 solid state main amp). My main source is a high res music server.

So my question for some of the more seasoned listeners on this forum is: have you come from other speakers and what are your findings on these matters?

Hola Bikernail,

That bass problem is at only that particular recording or do you have a bass issue?
If you have too much bass, then just bring the back knob to -3dB of your setting and have a a listening. The bass of the Montis is very good, but usually we use more bass energy than the needed. We just love the bass. So, again, just bring that knob down -3dB of your setting. I think that with this new setting, your problem is solved.

Happy listening!

 

[bikerneil]

Hola Bikernail,

That bass problem is at only that particular recording or do you have a bass issue?
If you have too much bass, then just bring the back knob to -3dB of your setting and have a a listening. The bass of the Montis is very good, but usually we use more bass energy than the needed. We just love the bass. So, again, just bring that knob down -3dB of your setting. I think that with this new setting, your problem is solved.

Happy listening!

Roberto - thanks. I tried your recommendation and it did help some. (My sub was set at +1, and I turned it to -2.) The bottom of the speaker still rattles at moderate volume but the rattling is much less now.

I will give that setting a try on some similar songs and then post results.

 

[Hear Here]

Peter - I have seen your system before and it is BEAUTIFUL. I've heard spectacular things about the sound from those Avantgard's. I'm sure it sounds as great as it looks. My problem with these speakers is they will not pass the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) issue. .

You may be surprised. All the women in my life really love the Avantgardes and wanted me to sell the MLs before I had a real chance to test them. Since that photo was taken (of the earlier Unos), I've changed to Duos and modified their appearance to make them seem more "friendly" by ditching the scaffolding that supported the horn tubes. Easily done - photos here if interested in showing other half! Early Avantgarde Unos and Duos - Ditching the Scaffolding - [email protected] - High Efficiency Speaker Asylum

 

[Lightloopy]

I purchased my first high end system in 1998- the speaker was easy. I was completely mesmerized. I went through gradual front end changes and SL3's revealed every step. My secret sauce was VTL MB 250 w/ 225 watts triode power for 12 years. I would take a listen now and then at my local retailer to other cone speakers, Maggies and my friends Quad's but no comparison.
I purchased ESL 11A in July to replace the SL3 and they are great, detailed w/ amazing bass BUT something is missing emotionally. I have not made by final decision yet. I came across a used pair of CLS2- and even with it's tired panels it makes the emotional connection for me. But for me only an ML ESL will do.

 

[peacefulcargo]

So I don't post that often, but every speaker sound is a compromise just like seeing a live act (how are they on the day and the equipment they use, plus sound test), having regularly gone to 25-30 concerts a year until recently. Also as one decides what is important musically in their 'universe' speaker choice can change while a person gets older and more selective. I used to listen to allot of electronic music, I now listen to allot of dark ambient atmospheric music. Here is the list of of speakers I have owned and lived with in chronological sequence from 16 to 53 yrs old which will demonstrate more than descriptive words my love of ESLs. In summary there are no other type speaker that has the presence with speed of midrange an ESL has and for me midrange is all about the the texture of the sound, there are so few speakers that do texture of midrange. Horns do midrange detail but so far I have not heard texture and I think that simply has to do with the physics of a horn (but the best I have heard are the Avantgarde). On moving coil nothing comes close to the ATC 75 midrange but again is limited by its physical width (that's why ProAc used 2 of them in the Response 4 and D100) . Magnepan - I love but again the ribbon does not have the transient speed with texture and air of an ESL ... all about the compromise. My preference is for the older models SL3/Quest/Prodigy etc but I think if I had a lack of space I like the 13a package as the sweet spot having spent time extensively listening to the 9/11/13/15.

Tannoy Monitor Gold 12
Bose 901
Proac Studio 100
Tannoy Monitor Gold 15
Boston Lynfield
Analysis Omega
JM Lab Micro Utopia
Quad 989
Quad 988
Quad 63
SF Electa Amator
Wilson Sasha
Sonus Faber Guarneri
Tannoy Arden
Final Sound 1000i
Martin Logan SL3
Martin Logan Quest
Mcintosh XRT1k
Martin Logan CLX
PMC MB2
PMC MB2XBD
Usher T515
ATC 45A
ATC 50A
ATC PA65 x 4 Stacked
Audiostatic ES100
Martin Logan CLX

Best Zi

 

[Robert D]

So I don't post that often, but every speaker sound is a compromise just like seeing a live act (how are they on the day and the equipment they use, plus sound test), having regularly gone to 25-30 concerts a year until recently. Also as one decides what is important musically in their 'universe' speaker choice can change while a person gets older and more selective. I used to listen to allot of electronic music, I now listen to allot of dark ambient atmospheric music. Here is the list of of speakers I have owned and lived with in chronological sequence from 16 to 53 yrs old which will demonstrate more than descriptive words my love of ESLs. In summary there are no other type speaker that has the presence with speed of midrange an ESL has and for me midrange is all about the the texture of the sound, there are so few speakers that do texture of midrange. Horns do midrange detail but so far I have not heard texture and I think that simply has to do with the physics of a horn (but the best I have heard are the Avantgarde). On moving coil nothing comes close to the ATC 75 midrange but again is limited by its physical width (that's why ProAc used 2 of them in the Response 4 and D100) . Magnepan - I love but again the ribbon does not have the transient speed with texture and air of an ESL ... all about the compromise. My preference is for the older models SL3/Quest/Prodigy etc but I think if I had a lack of space I like the 13a package as the sweet spot having spent time extensively listening to the 9/11/13/15.

Tannoy Monitor Gold 12
Bose 901
Proac Studio 100
Tannoy Monitor Gold 15
Boston Lynfield
Analysis Omega
JM Lab Micro Utopia
Quad 989
Quad 988
Quad 63
SF Electa Amator
Wilson Sasha
Sonus Faber Guarneri
Tannoy Arden
Final Sound 1000i
Martin Logan SL3
Martin Logan Quest
Mcintosh XRT1k
Martin Logan CLX
PMC MB2
PMC MB2XBD
Usher T515
ATC 45A
ATC 50A
ATC PA65 x 4 Stacked
Audiostatic ES100
Martin Logan CLX

Best Zi

Wow, 25 to 30 concerts a year. Most I've done is 5. I'm wondering, do you wear ear plugs nearly every time? I go see rock/heavy metal/alternative music concerts and they get LOUD. They seem louder now than ever, maybe it because im over 50 now! I have hearing loss and constant tinnitus. I think if I were to see 25 concerts or more a year that my hearing would be in bad shape. I got my hearing tested and the doctor said I don't need hearing aids yet. There is no cure for tinnitus, so its permanent. After a few years you learn how to filter out the high pitch buzz.

 

[RDC]

There is no cure for tinnitus, so its permanent. After a few years you learn how to filter out the high pitch buzz.

There might be some hope for the future. But prevention is better than hoping for a treatment.
Treating Tinnitus Through the…Tongue?

 

[JonFo]

I did not come from high-end speakers to ML, I had some mid-range polks back in the late 80's + 2 ACI Saturn subs. When I was at an audio store with my BIL as he was auditioning some Boston Acoustics towers, I heard what sounded like someone playing a grand piano in a room down the hall. When I poked my head in the room was shocked that it was a pair ML ReQuests playing. That was it, hooked, a year later (1993) I bought my Sequel IIb's and I have never been tempted to switch since. I've heard many >$50K setups with highly regarded dynamic speakers, and none tempted me. Well, the Merdian DSP8000 setup I heard in 2004 was amazing, but that whole setup was well over $100K. And still did not have the ESL quality we all love.

 

[JonFo]

Regarding the sweet spot, it's all about the rear wave and managing it.
I have a very wide sweet spot thanks to absorbing the heck out of the rear of the front three speakers.
Absorption on the wall behind the speakers and on the side walls between the speaker edge and the front wall. Boom, no more head-in-a-vise sweet spot issues.

It is basic acoustics, as the reflected & delayed rear energy is competing with the direct radiated energy and affects imaging. Dampening that reflected signal means you hear more of the direct signal. And a bonus is less dipole cancellation in the lower range of the panel.