Martin Logan Panel Repair Available In Germany

[Rich]

All speaker drivers are consumable. You're out of your mind if you think that they're not. The only difference is that they're less likely to fail in a short time due to environmental issues like the stat panels are.

Really? Gee, I wonder why Soundlabs speakers have this under their customer FAQ:

Do your speakers deteriorate with time?

As long as the speakers are not abused like directly exposing them to water, sunlight, excessive heat, or other destructive environmental factors, or over-driving them, there is no deterioration with time. Properly cared for, your speakers should be considered heir-looms

.

And if I remember correctly, Roger Sanders states he has never had a panel failure. I think you guys are just making excuses for ML, much like people were doing when they first announced they were discontinuing legacy model support. I guess I just expect more out of a company with their history and heritage. They used to put customer service before the almighty dollar. Now it is clearly profit first and everything else second.

 

[jmschnur]

Are there definitive measurements of sound lab panels over time compared with let's say the summit panels both in pristine environments?

Be interesting to see the data.

Lots of words here but I do not see hard data.


Short term for me ; vantage has not changed in 5 years. I will check my Montis rigorously over time as well since I am one of those hard fact guys.


My B&W 801s starting going after 15 years or so.


Just saying...


P.S. hard for companies not to be interested in profit margin. It is important for us to remind ml about the long term benefits of good service and reliable products.

 

[Hocky]

Looks like marketing BS to me.

 

[Rich]

Looks like marketing BS to me.

Actually, they have specific technologies that reduce the debilitating effects of dust and humidity on their speakers. Their speakers are probably one of the most reliable speakers out there.

 

[jmschnur]

Looking for hard data.


J

 

[amey01]

Looking for hard data.


J

How about you come up with some first?

I've already pointed you to some hard data right here on this forum - the number of people who discuss/have replaced ES panels versus the number of people that have had the misfortune of having to replace a woofer, capacator or other non-ES panel item in their speakers.

I think it is plainly obvious to anyone.........

 

[jmschnur]

Sure. I have the one data point on my Vantage. 20-20k similar sensitivity and less than ~2 db change over 5 years.


The anecdotal information is not clear and certainly does not show that overtime most ML panels severely decline . Some do and some do not. The enviironemtal conditions in which the panels have been kept is not well documented. So the data is not at hand yet for long term studies leading to clear conclusions

This is actually close to my field of expertise. I will try to ferret out some info .

In the meantime, I will continue to measure my ML panels and will report every year or so on their measured response.

I am hoping that there might be a number of us who will do that, so in the next 10 years or so we will be able to understand better .

Perhaps the company marketing the repair of ML panels has some insights they can share.

Note in edit: humidity is an important negative factor for lifetime so keep the the room the speakers are in air conditioned . Also it might be best to keep charge off panels when not in use ( new speakers from ML do this). 60 year lifetimes have been reported for some PET conductive films. These films are less sensitive to high humidity. It is not clear ML is using the new films. However the note later on in this thread suggests they are .

It is not clear that replacement panels for the older units use the improved technology.


J

 

[amey01]

So the data is not at hand yet for long term studies leading to clear conclusions


J

Data not at hand?

You haven't been on these forums long then, have you.

Let me give you a lead:

* Bar the odd unfortunate early life failure in the warranty period (yes, these do occor and will continue to do so for every manufactured product)
* Some panels start failing around 6-7 years;
* They're dropping like flies around 10-15 years;
* Some (again, just a few) get 15 years plus out of their panels.

You can pull stories of some 30+ year ML panels still working (is ML even 30 years old?) but whooty-de-woo - that proves nothing and is no indication that every other set will do so also.

I live in a humid sub-tropical environment and there is no way I can afford to run the air conditioning system 24/7 just for the MLs. I suspect I represent 95% of other owners too so there's no point mentioning that. We all know that if you keep them in an "infection control room" clean environment then they'll last forever - unfortunately residential homes are not like that. I keep them covered when the air conditioning is not turned on, and vacuum regularly of course.

I'm also a damn bloody hardcore, anally-retentive perfectionist, and I expect to be able to replace the panels immediately if they are not performing optimally. That's why I bought ML in the first place and not some cheap Sony rubbish (which would have been far cheaper and caused me far less pain as it turns out).

 

[User211]

Cheer up Adam - it isn't the end of the world!!!

 

[edwinr]

I ran the panel longevity question past my local importer who is in direct regular contact with ML. He said the latest ML products, using improved technology will knock the socks off the earlier products for longevity. Better panel build techniques and improved materials will also allow legacy speakers to benefit from panel upgrades. That is; they will last much longer with fewer maintenance issues.

I was also informed that any new ML speaker will in all likelihood outlive it's owner and will probably outlast most conventional speakers.

It was also interesting to note that ML quality control seems to have improved over the years - the return rate for warranty repairs has dropped dramatically.

 

[dmusoke]

If true (and a big IF), then its a relief indeed for i spent much $$$ getting my Spires last year and was disheartened to learn i'd need to replace them within 10 years!

 

[jmschnur]

It would be nice if ML would speak directly about these issues. Much is shrouded in secrecy.


J

 

[amey01]

Edwin - well of course Kedcorp is going to say that - they have an interest in the speakers too!

will also allow legacy speakers to benefit from panel upgrades.

This is a key issue - on one hand they are saying that legacy speaker parts are hard to come by (hence the price increase) and on the other hand they repeatedly say that legacy speaker parts are benefiting from upgraded techniques and materials. (how can they justify a price increase based on their "MOQ" line then?)

They are bull5hitting through their noses........I am not stupid - and we as a user group are not stupid. Lying to loyal customers stinks! It's disgusting. It's abhorrent. I can't believe that the manufacturer of such an expensive asset that I own would treat me this way. I'm logging out before my head blows off.

 

[Rich]

Edwinr, a SALESMAN told you all that? Well, then . . . it must be true! I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence on this forum that the new models have plenty of problems too. One forum member recently discussed all kinds of issues he had with a brand new pair of CLX! The proof is in the pudding, and unfortunately it will be a decade or more before anyone knows whether the panels built by the new Paradigm/MartinLogan will stand the test of time. But I haven't really seen or heard any evidence to support your comment regarding: "better panel build techniques and improved materials."

 

[jmschnur]

As a wrote earlier , there are new enhanced films (PET)that have been developed in the past 5 years that are supposed to have 60 year lifetimes and be much less sensitive to humidity . These films are currently commercially available. What is not clear is if ML is currently using those films. If so when did they start, and if they use those new films in the replacement panels for legacy speakers.

It would be good to hear from them with clarity on this subject. I do not see why this would be a trade secret if true.


J

 

[edwinr]

I am confident that ML uses the very best technology available to produce our electrostatic panels. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - if you guys could just hear my Theos, you would agree that there is no way ML is using sub standard materials and processes. Regarding the manufacture of panels for legacy speakers, the lucky legacy owner gets to experience brand new panels made with the lastest technology.

There's a lot of angst here about the price increases. I'm not saying you guys are wrong to feel that way. It's how you feel and you can't just suddenly push the 'happiness' button and then everything is alright. So I guess it's okay if you guys want to vent - this is a great place for it. I just hope that things work out okay and everyone can get back to enjoying their music. That's what it's all about.

Kind regards to everybody.:cheers:

 

[Rich]

I am confident that ML uses the very best technology available to produce our electrostatic panels. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - if you guys could just hear my Theos, you would agree that there is no way ML is using sub standard materials and processes.

Umm, that's kind of a silly statement. How good they sound new has no correlation with how well they are built or how long they will last. Also, don't forget that all the legacy models sounded superb. The love of those models was why this club was formed in the first place. Have you ever heard a Prodigy or CLS speaker before? It may give you a new reference by which to judge your Theos.

Regarding the manufacture of panels for legacy speakers, the lucky legacy owner gets to experience brand new panels made with the lastest technology.

Actually, this is not necessarily so. There has been a lot of double-talk from ML about whether legacy panels get updated to latest technology. In fact, lots of the reasons ML gave for the price increase on panels was that materials for legacy panels were scarce and had to be purchased in small amounts, and they couldn't upgrade them to modern materials because it would change the sound. ML has never given a clear answer on this issue.

 

[edwinr]

[/QUOTE]...There has been a lot of double-talk from ML about whether legacy panels get updated to latest technology. In fact, lots of the reasons ML gave for the price increase on panels was that materials for legacy panels were scarce and had to be purchased in small amounts, and they couldn't upgrade them to modern materials because it would change the sound. ML has never given a clear answer on this issue.[/QUOTE]

Interesting you say that, Rich. My information is that ML re-builds the legacy panels using the new technology.

 

[Len44]

...There has been a lot of double-talk from ML about whether legacy panels get updated to latest technology. In fact, lots of the reasons ML gave for the price increase on panels was that materials for legacy panels were scarce and had to be purchased in small amounts, and they couldn't upgrade them to modern materials because it would change the sound. ML has never given a clear answer on this issue.[/QUOTE]

Interesting you say that, Rich. My information is that ML re-builds the legacy panels using the new technology.[/QUOTE]

Great! Um, and the source of your information is...???

 

[amey01]

Interesting you say that, Rich. My information is that ML re-builds the legacy panels using the new technology.

That was our understanding too, because ML said it themselves. That was, until they wanted to justify a ridiculous 200% price increase. Then they started on the "MOQ" BS line, and how the parts for the old models are scarce. Like that justifies a 200% increase in current production 'stat replacements too. Even if it were true. It's all smoke and mirrors. Lies and more lies. And of course, an eminently appropriate and ethical way for a company that sells $USD25,000 products to treat its customers.

See this post from Justin and Scotty (ML) for the recent "MOQ" line........

http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...-for-MartinLogan-Products&p=149730#post149730