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DTB300

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In another thread, the poster asked why a pair of Aeon I's cost about the same a single Theater I Center Speaker...

This has always been my point about ML Center Speakers. The cost per performance quotient just does not make sense when compared to their non-center speakers. If ML brought down the price of the Theater slightly below the cost of a single Aeon I, ML probably could not make them fast enough.

To take this a step further..think about this - would one Aeon I out perform the Theater? IMHO - a resounding YES!!! BUT....The Aeon is much larger and really does not fit like the Theater does above or below a TV or screen. But again which would give you the best performance? The $1700 single Aeon or the $3000 Theater? See my point?

Dan
 

twich54

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Not only do I see it, I saw it, that's why I bought a Fresco for $750, hell even that thing is over priced at the MSRP price point !!
 

DTB300

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Twich....Don't get me wrong here...the Theater i is the BEST sounding of all the center channel speakers (I have auditioned them all), but again I believe the pricing is way out of line when compared to the rest of the ML speaker lineup.

Now I must confess that I know NOTHING about the production costs regarding the Theater, and maybe this is what drives up the price point. When compared to the Aeon - There is a smaller stat panel, smaller drivers (woofers and tweeter), the case that houses these components, different power supply, and the stand. Sometimes smaller does not mean lower costs for production.

Dan
 

Statman

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I feeling your pain!

I needed a replacement for my Logos so I had to buy one. Bitching and moaning to my dealer and ML right before CES helped me a bit (long story) but yes they are not cheap! I'm not complaining though, I had almost sold the ML's and purchased Wilson Watt puppy 7's and a "Watch" center channel which is way more than the Theater i? If you wanna play your gonna pay. ;)
 

DTB300

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Statman said:
I needed a replacement for my Logos so I had to buy one. Bitching and moaning to my dealer and ML right before CES helped me a bit (long story) but yes they are not cheap! I'm not complaining though, I had almost sold the ML's and purchased Wilson Watt puppy 7's and a "Watch" center channel which is way more than the Theater i? If you wanna play your gonna pay. ;)
While the Wison's line of speakers are very nice sounding, they too are over priced as you are paying for the name more than anything. You can get the same performance at a cheaper price. This is true with almost everything we purchase today and not just audio.

If I want to play, I DO NOT have to pay - I can go another path realizing the plus and minus of my decision. As a consumer, I am the one that helps dictate what sells and for how much. If the product is selling for "X" amount of dollars and people are willing to spend it, and the product is selling at quantities that make business sense, it will remain. This was the death of the CLS line, and now rumors of the E2 - overall people did not feel the price warranted the product, or the product really did not sell in quantities and ML made their business decision based on cost versus sales.

Dan
 

socialxray

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DTB300 said:
The Aeon is much larger and really does not fit like the Theater does above or below a TV or screen.
Dan
Does the Theater really fit anywhere? If it is above the TV you better have a very sturdy TV! And the thing is really wide to boot!

And I'd still love to have one.
 

twich54

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Dan, You make a good point, bottom line the ego plays a big role in this hobby of ours. Case in point, look at that insanely priced power cable that JPS Labs offers...$3500 !!! I'd like to meet the bird brain that thinks thats worth the money !!!
 

Statman

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Twich,Please don't get me started on the cable hype!

twich54 said:
Dan, You make a good point, bottom line the ego plays a big role in this hobby of ours. Case in point, look at that insanely priced power cable that JPS Labs offers...$3500 !!! I'd like to meet the bird brain that thinks thats worth the money !!!
DTB300,

Hang in there once the Stage is released (hold your breath) then maybe the prices of the Theater i will come down? It is a great center channel and does voice better with my Odysseys than my Logos did. How good of a relationship do you have with your ML dealer? As I stated before I received "special" price for my Theater i. I can't go into it on line. ;)
 

DTB300

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twich54 said:
Dan, You make a good point, bottom line the ego plays a big role in this hobby of ours. Case in point, look at that insanely priced power cable that JPS Labs offers...$3500 !!! I'd like to meet the bird brain that thinks thats worth the money !!!
More like common sense rather than ego IMO.

BTW, JPS has a PC that is even more expensive that that!!! Like I said, companies will make it and continue to make it, if people will pay for it.

BTW, I use the JPS Labs IC's and absolutely love how they work with my setup and my room after all the testing of many IC's out there. My dealer has worked with me on a better price for them that made more sense to me. I will being putting in the JPS Speaker Cable soon to replace my Straightwire Rhapsody S cables. Just trying to come up with the $$$ needed.

Dan
 

DTB300

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Statman said:
DTB300, Hang in there once the Stage is released (hold your breath) then maybe the prices of the Theater i will come down?
I bet it does not come down as the Stage will be priced even higher. If anything, they may even discontinue some of their older centers. Time will only tell.

It is a great center channel and does voice better with my Odysseys than my Logos did.
I bet that it does. While it is the best of the ML Centers, it is still overpriced. Heck if it did not look so akward, I would hang a Script i sideways above my TV. (But then the wife would really have me put away into the nut house) The Script would be $1000 for one speaker - don't think you can buy just one - and it would out perform any of the current centers.

A real good test would be to go to a ML dealer that had 2 Theater i's and hook them up for 2 channel and compare against 2 Scripts i. Now the Theater is not designed for 2 channel type full range music (to a point) and one would need to be careful on playing to see performance. Then take a Script and compare it to a Theater for Center Channel performance and then make your decision from there.

This is my point. If the Theater is priced MORE than the Script's, yet the Scripts out perform them, there is something wrong.

How good of a relationship do you have with your ML dealer? As I stated before I received "special" price for my Theater i. I can't go into it on line. ;)
I have a good relationship with my local store as they know me very well. But even a special price - what I consider a good price, for its performance, for the Theater would be less than the Cinema - I do not think ANY dealer would sell a Theater for that $$$.

For my Stereo Store, I try to stop by at least monthly to see what new things they have, talk about audio, and do some listening while other clients are there auditioning stuff. If helps keep me up to date on things, and gets me out of the house (wife hates when I go there as she always expects me to walk in the door with something to try).

Dan
 

DTB300

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twich54 said:
Case in point, look at that insanely priced power cable that JPS Labs offers...$3500 !!!
Since you brought it up. I recently needed to replace my PS Audio Lab II PC for my Plinius due to moving around things and I needed more length. I purchased a Signal Cable Magic Power PC - 6ft for under $80 shipped. Cable is 3-10Ga conductors with Marinco ends. Price wise a 6ft PS Audio Lab (not Lab II) runs around $400.

When I swapped out the PS Audio with the Magic PC, there was no audible differences between the two. BTW, the Amp runs on a dedicated outlet with a Pass & Seymour outlet. I had done the switch before with a cheap Voltex cable (3-14Ga conductors), and there was a difference in sound, but not with the Signal Cable. A cable for people to consider if they are looking for performance for a nice price. And they offer 30 day (I believe) refund if you do not like it.

Dan
 
T

Taz

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Second that on Signal Cable. Great cable, Great price and Frank delivers great service.
 

Dominick22

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TDB 300,

What are you talking about comparing the Theater i to 2 scrpits in stereo. Maybe you are ready for the nut house!Lol
You have to understand that the theater is for...well, theater! Not stereo playback although it does this well too. My point is that I feel it produces voices and some other movie sounds MUCH better than my ascent i's.

If you want to compare its value...compare it to other centers at its price point. Now, do you think it is over priced?
Although I also think that they could charge less, when I look at it this way, I can justify its worth accross the audio industry...not accross other ML products!
Do you REALLY think that you wil get the same center like performance out of your script??

I have a challenge for you! And it is even a stereo playback like you wanted!

Get the Ashanti CD. The blue one. Borrow it or buy...whatever.

Take it to the dealer or a friends house who has both speakers and audition track 16 (i think). Play the track that is just her voice. It is about 2-3 minutes long.

This song will clearly show you the difference in voice reproduction between the ML models. The Theater i clearly outperforms my Ascent i's in this demo!

The Theater is more crisp and rxact like the singer is right where the speaker is. With the ascent i's, the singer is somewhere in between, and behind the speakers.

END POINT: Theater i is probably overpriced, but I feel that it is still the best center channel buy in 5.1.
Can you think of a better channel for under 5k??

Dominick
 

twich54

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Better center channel for under 5k ????? you bettcha....B&W- HTM2D !!!!!!
 

DTB300

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Dominick22 said:
DTB300....

What are you talking about comparing the Theater i to 2 scrpits in stereo. Maybe you are ready for the nut house!Lol
It was just an example to help explain my point. Remember my point was to compare a Script i to a Theater i - COMPARISON is price versus performance.

You have to understand that the theater is for...well, theater! Not stereo playback although it does this well too. My point is that I feel it produces voices and some other movie sounds MUCH better than my ascent i's. If you want to compare its value...compare it to other centers at its price point. Now, do you think it is over priced?
I am well aware what it is for and yes I still think it is over priced. I currently use a B&W Center that I paid $800 for - and while it does not match up sonically EXACTLY with my main ML's, it performs very well with MOVIES as you pointed out a Center channel should do. But a Center Channel also needs to perform with MCH Music which includes 5.1 and 3 Channel Classical.

BTW, with the $2000 I saved over the Theater i, I used toward the purchase price (paid for 90%) of my Plinius Amplifier. So let me see here, I could have a Theater i or I can have my B&W AND my Plinius. A real no-brainer.

Although I also think that they could charge less, when I look at it this way, I can justify its worth accross the audio industry...not accross other ML products!
But it IS a ML product. If you look at other companies and compare their Center Channels to their line of products this disparity does not exist - for the most part - especially when looking at model lines and cost.

Do you REALLY think that you wil get the same center like performance out of your script??
When looking at the cost of a Script and AGAIN looking at the cost versus performance, Yep...or else I would not have said it. While the Theater may have been designed to be a Center, it is WAY OVER PRICED for what it needs to do or does. The Script i is a 1/3 of the cost but performs up to 80% of the Theater. Again a MUCH HIGHER COST VERSUS PERFOPMANCE quotient. If the Theater was priced around $1300, then it would truely be a no-brain decision. But it isn't....

I have a challenge for you! And it is even a stereo playback like you wanted! Get the Ashanti CD. The blue one. Borrow it or buy...whatever.
Take it to the dealer or a friends house who has both speakers and audition track 16 (i think). Play the track that is just her voice. It is about 2-3 minutes long.
First of all I do not need the "Ashanti" CD as I have MANY audiophile quality CD's and SACD's for audition, one of which is a live performance, and I have heard the same performer live in a very similar sized venue. How close does the reproduction of the singer compare to the live performance? While we will never achieve live performance quality, we can always use LIVE to see what colorations or subtractions a speaker or component is doing to the song.

This song will clearly show you the difference in voice reproduction between the ML models. The Theater i clearly outperforms my Ascent i's in this demo!
If you say it does on your setup, then I cannot argue the point with you. But doesn't it bother you that your $2800 Theater sounds better (to you) on vocal reproduction than your $4400 Ascents? So when you are listening in TWO CHANNEL with the Ascent's, vocal reproduction is worse than your Theater? :eek: Vocals are one of primary items in audio reproduction that we can all relate to as we hear vocal sounds all of our lives, yet your Theater sounds better than your Ascents.....:confused:

The Theater is more crisp and rxact like the singer is right where the speaker is. With the ascent i's, the singer is somewhere in between, and behind the speakers.
Crisp or accurate? Two different things here. Singers and vocals are not always right in the center, so a center should try to match up with your left/right speakers for that seamless sound, yet you have stated that vocals are better reproduced by your Theater than your Ascents. While we all have to make choices and decisions on the center we use, your Theater and Ascents still do not match up as seamless as they should by your statements.

END POINT: Theater i is probably overpriced, but I feel that it is still the best center channel buy in 5.1. Can you think of a better channel for under 5k??
Here are a couple....

The Aerial CC5 is a nice center and is priced lower than their model 9's and 7B's - which are a couple of their top of the line models (2nd and 3rd models).

Wilson Audio Watch - just over your $5k point, but another great center channel.

Remember the INITIAL POINT ABOUT THE ML CENTERS...which you have missed here. In comparison to performance versus price, the Theater is priced WAY TOO HIGH. For a third of the price, the Script i performance is not 1/3 of the Theater i.

Dan
 
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Statman

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Dtb 300

Has anyone including your Wife ever told you that you are stubborn? ;)

People are just giving advice/opinions to you. And yes you have every right to give it back. You seem to want to debate everybody that posts? You're right and they are wrong? (1st deadly sin)? I had Scripts for about 2 months and sold them after listening to them in my system while waiting for my Odysseys I was not impressed with them. I agree with you about the Signal cable been using them for awhile, sold my Cardas stuff. May I ask how old you are? No kids? Just curious due to the fact I used to sound a lot like you in my opinions! Especially when advice was given. Not trying to flame you. :)
 

Peter_Klim

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Statman said:
Has anyone including your Wife ever told you that you are stubborn? ;)

People are just giving advice/opinions to you. And yes you have every right to give it back. You seem to want to debate everybody that posts? You're right and they are wrong? (1st deadly sin)? I had Scripts for about 2 months and sold them after listening to them in my system while waiting for my Odysseys I was not impressed with them. I agree with you about the Signal cable been using them for awhile, sold my Cardas stuff. May I ask how old you are? No kids? Just curious due to the fact I used to sound a lot like you in my opinions! Especially when advice was given. Not trying to flame you. :)

Well, the guy didn't have to write that he's ready for the nut house and then laugh at him...
 

Craig

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To take this a step further..think about this - would one Aeon I out perform the Theater? IMHO - a resounding YES!!! BUT....The Aeon is much larger and really does not fit like the Theater does above or below a TV or screen. But again which would give you the best performance? The $1700 single Aeon or the $3000 Theater? See my point?
Lets compare the major parts of the Aeon i to the Theater i.

Aeon i :panel, 8" woofer, and 1" tweeter, 2-way crossover, electronics and cabinet/frame, spikes.

Theater i : Two magnetically shielded 6.5" woofers, arched panel, three 1" tweeters, cabinet/frame, 3-way crossover, electronics and a heavy duty adjustable stand.

My point is that the Theater i is requires more major parts to make than a single Aeon i. Therefore, one could expect the Theater i to have a higher production parts/assembly cost than the Aeon i. Also, there may be more design costs involved to develop this center speaker. How much more should it be? I don't know but it does not surprise me that the Theater i is more expensive than the Aeon i.

There...I'm done.
 
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tsd2005

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Statman said:
DTB300,

Hang in there once the Stage is released (hold your breath) then maybe the prices of the Theater i will come down? It is a great center channel and does voice better with my Odysseys than my Logos did. How good of a relationship do you have with your ML dealer? As I stated before I received "special" price for my Theater i. I can't go into it on line. ;)

If I were Martin Logan, I wouldn't be giving you any new deals. As a dealer I think its absurd that you got one. Every Dealer has a 5% off MSRP limit for deals on ML product: period. If you whined and got treated good, you should have the decency to not flaunt it online. Now you're going to have people go to their dealer and say "but this guy online said...." when dealers are contractually obligated to that 5% off.

Now the Cinema and Theater were put on the discontinued list a while ago. That means you can haggle all you want on them.

However they were removed from the list not too long ago. They are both remaining in production at least for the time being.

The "Stage," is not a Center replacement for the Theater or Cinema. Its smaller than both.

They have a plan for new Centers but I don't know when it will be out. It will replace the old ones, and then deals can be had on the old ones. 25% to 30% off discontinued models is common.
 
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