Martin Logan 13A's and a subwoofer pairing question.

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Omuracada

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I am in the middle of moving to a house that changes my theater quite a bit (much larger space (16x20) however it wide open to the kitchen :( With that said I am looking at new subs as right now I have a MUCH smaller enclosed room running a SVS Sealed 3000. My question is that I had my eyes on x2 SVS PB 16 Ultra ported, though in reviews I see they tend not to hold up as well in the mid bass as they do in the low. Does anyone know if the 13A's hold themselves well in the mid bass section with the 4 sealed subs they bring to the table. Is this the case and reason one would want to go sealed? I am pitting the SVS's with the x2 ML Dynamo 1600x's which are sealed. Any thoughts on which way you would go? I also have the ability to run DIRAC for sound calibration once the subs are in place. Part of me is also thinking that the ML subs come with ARC as do the 13A's and maybe its best to keep the family together. Please note that I understand this hobby and obsession is very opinion based and in the end it comes to what sounds good to me, however I do welcome many opinions as it helps educate me and pushed me to learn and think about things I may not have considered in the past when making a decision.
 

Northy

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I would go with a or a pair of Balanced Force 210 or 212. You have 13As which demand a much more refined bass. I have nothing against the 1600x but it is like you got your Porsche 911 but want to install mid-grade tires. I have a 210 and it is amazing.
 

Big Dog RJ

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G'day mate,

Very nice to see the 13A's going strong. They're outstanding hybrids, and the ML team have come a long way in this new Masterpiece series. Previously when I did have them, I never used subs. The built-in bass drivers are plenty for me and my musical tastes. The 13A's are well capable of serious bass levels when matched properly with high-current and highly stable voltage power amplifiers. They suit most average sized rooms well and can equally perform well in large rooms.

Although they are quite powerful, if the user thinks they're inadequate or limiting in power input, the larger Ren15a's are available, and if that's not adequate then the Neolith will suit.

So, I'm not too sure what exactly you're trying to achieve by adding more subs than there already is... are you trying to recreate the "stage affect?" This is trying to recreate concert levels at home... which is quite pointless simply because the physics and playback systems involved in live concert halls are totally different to domestic settings. This is domestic hi-fi not a rock concert.

Anyway, that's just my 50cts worth. Perhaps a few others would gladly respond or offer better advice.
Cheers and all the best with it.
RJ
 

Omuracada

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My apologies I probably should have mentioned that 95% of my listening is dedicated to movies and 5% music. This is why I would like a bit more bass, as I would like my movies to pop a bit more in that category.
 

Robert D

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I use a single balanced force 210 with my Prodigy speakers and feel like that is plenty. Your speakers probably have even better bass since they have built in amps. If you run the sub at speaker level, it has a custom crossover setting for your 13As. The sub also uses ARC, and there is a button you can press to turn it off and on. I'm very happy with the sub so far. New ones have a 4 or 5 year warranty too. Can't remember how long.
 

Brazillnut

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The MLs would be my choice. I am a much bigger fan of a good sealed sub vs a huge ported sub unless all you want is LFE room shake. Plus I really prefer a sub with room EQ like ARC.
 

Northy

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My apologies I probably should have mentioned that 95% of my listening is dedicated to movies and 5% music. This is why I would like a bit more bass, as I would like my movies to pop a bit more in that category.
Even your two-channel music will be impacted when you add a very high quality sub like 210. The same goes for HT. You will appreciate the quality of the bass (i.e. pitch, definition, lighting fast response, etc.) on music and movies.
 
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iluvboxing

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I am in the middle of moving to a house that changes my theater quite a bit (much larger space (16x20) however it wide open to the kitchen :( With that said I am looking at new subs as right now I have a MUCH smaller enclosed room running a SVS Sealed 3000. My question is that I had my eyes on x2 SVS PB 16 Ultra ported, though in reviews I see they tend not to hold up as well in the mid bass as they do in the low. Does anyone know if the 13A's hold themselves well in the mid bass section with the 4 sealed subs they bring to the table. Is this the case and reason one would want to go sealed? I am pitting the SVS's with the x2 ML Dynamo 1600x's which are sealed. Any thoughts on which way you would go? I also have the ability to run DIRAC for sound calibration once the subs are in place. Part of me is also thinking that the ML subs come with ARC as do the 13A's and maybe its best to keep the family together. Please note that I understand this hobby and obsession is very opinion based and in the end it comes to what sounds good to me, however I do welcome many opinions as it helps educate me and pushed me to learn and think about things I may not have considered in the past when making a decision.
I currently use the REL HT/1205 mated to a pair of Aerius i, Logos, and Scripts in a slightly smaller room. I recommend that you consider, at a minimum, two REL S/510 or HT/1508 Predator subwoofers: S/510 10 Inch Home Subwoofer | REL Acoustics | HT/1508 Predator | REL Acoustics.

Give REL a call. They will give you great insight based on your use case. They may advise the S/510 are the correct pairing or possibly suggest something different

Also if you visit their website, there’s a subwoofer pairing tool: What Is The Best Subwoofer for Me? | REL Acoustics.
 
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sleepysurf

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I suggest waiting until you have the 13A's in the new room, and run them alone, with ARC Genesis, to first see how they interact with the room. You can tweak speaker and listening positions, and then decide how much additional bass you need (assuming you will) with the open floor plan. If you have significant bass nulls at the main listening position(s), you'll ideally want two subs to smooth out the response. However, you might be surprised by how well the 13A woofers perform by themselves, and perhaps decide a well-placed SVS 3000 is sufficient to supplement.

I have a similar situation with an open floor plan, and added two BF210's to my (old) Summits, but later upgraded to 13A's. The 13A's bass performance (especially with ARC Genesis) is so good, I barely need the subs now. However, we're in the process of upgrading the room (ordered new sofa, thick oriental rug) so I'm waiting to see if/how I'll integrate the two subs.
 

codesx100

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I would go with a or a pair of Balanced Force 210 or 212. You have 13As which demand a much more refined bass. I have nothing against the 1600x but it is like you got your Porsche 911 but want to install mid-grade tires. I have a 210 and it is amazing.

This. I think a pair of 212s would be the last subs you would need. Until the next top end ML subs XD
 

ttocs

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All good suggestions! Lots of ways to go and you can probably be happy with any of them. The best suggestion is to wait until after you've got the new speakers, let them break-in for a couple hundred hours, enjoy the ride for a bit, then play with subs. This is what I did and I already had subs to use.

Two of the subs I had at the time that I wanted to use just weren't a good match for the 13A's. They were Sumiko S.10 subwoofers, which were good enough for the ML Vista speakers I'd had for seven years, but were just too clumsy for the 13A. After months of trying to get the Sumikos to work with the 13A's, I gave up and got a couple Dynamo 1100X subs which were an instant hit, so I bought more.

By accident I learned how great the dynamic impact can be with each additional subwoofer. Not for overemphasizing the bass - which I dislike, but allowing it to be really dynamic. So far I've got four 1100X and two 800X subs in a total of three locations in the room which provide effortless response for music mainly, and also HT. Again, I'm not a bass bloat guy, I love accurate sound. Music has never been better, and when that guy hits the window in The Dark Knight, I jump EVERY time!

You can't go wrong with 212's, but get multiples. Whatever you end up deciding on, get at least two, or more, and put them in multiple locations in the room.
 

JonFo

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You can't go wrong with 212's, but get multiples. Whatever you end up deciding on, get at least two, or more, and put them in multiple locations in the room.
^^^ This!

Balancing the room modes is win #1, win #2 is the increase in dynamic headroom.
Both of my systems have four subs.
 

AlmostHome

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I use an SVS SB4000 with my 13As. It was purchased prior to the MLs so there wasn't much reason to change. I only use the system for music and I really like what the sub adds when required, the Organ Symphony for example. I have a feeling 99% of the time it is idling. The room is 16x22 but 1 long and 1 short side are knee walls or open.
 

BDH55

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I'll echo what iluvboxing said about giving REL a call, or at least spending some time on the REL website in their Articles section. Lots of good setup videos that while targeted at REL subs, several are more general and also helpful. One of the absolute best things I did in my HT system was to add a sub to my center channel. It just makes a different system even when not watching big movie productions. Of course you will be losing your ability to use ARC on the sub setup, which is not insignificant...
 

Fidji99

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There are lot of really good subwoofers out there, it seems to be mature technology and you if you go for technically competent sub, you can not do wrong. ML is one of those companies, that produce really good subs, but also other brands mentioned are OK. I personally prefer to stick with sealed design, trading last couple of Hz for what I perceive as better integration. But nothing against ported designs, especially for movie watching. And lot of them offer good value for money.

I suppose you 16*20 is in feet, so for us here around 30m2, which is also size of my listening space and I have also 13A as Fronts. Their bass extension and power is more than enough for my space [talking music]. Unfortunately, in my optimal listening position and with optimal placement for everything above 100Hz I get -12dB cancellation between 35-50Hz, despite each of the individual speakers being ruler flat, thanks to DRC EQuing. This is why I need subs also for music, not only for movies.

I started with 1 sub in 5.1 for movie watching. It was awful for stereo.
2 subs - it showed some potential and was clearly better
Third one was transformative from SQ perspective
And 4th one just rounded it up - currently I run 1x1600, 2x1100, 1x800 in "living room-friendly Geddes" (c) configuration with DRC.

I have decided to go ML Dynamo route - 1) i am maximizing spend with my ML dealer, who is my go-to guy for everything AV 2) I like down/front fire flexibility 3) they look neutral in the room 4) they are good subs

Moral of the story - you can not have too much subs ;-).
 

Omuracada

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I really appreciate everyone's contributions to this thread. I havedecided to also keep it in the family and go with two Dynamo 1600s. In the end I have been using a sealed svs and have enjoyed movies on it a ton. Thry arrive next week. Once in I will run both ARC as well as Dirac and let you all know my thoughts.
 

twodogs112

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Bdh55, how did you add a subwoofer to your center channel? I’m using a ml cinema center, running off a Rotel amp. Using a Yamaha 2000 reciever as a ht preamp. I have two subs, only using one in ht mode. Having a sub in the center is a great idea. Thanks.
 
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