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Logos or Cinema i ?

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aworkx

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Hello,

I own 2 pairs of SL3 and woud like to complete the system with a center channel.
So I have the choice between an used Logos in good shape but from 2000 (1700 $) and a new Cinema i (2500$).
The room is about 15 feet on 15 feet on 7 feet high.
Some people told me that the Cinema is hard to make sound good...
Any experience would be welcome.

Thanks
 
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zaphod

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aworkx said:
Hello,

I own 2 pairs of SL3 and woud like to complete the system with a center channel.
I'm from Europe and unfortunately the prices of ML are high here :mad:
So I have the choice between an used Logos in good shape but from 2000 (1700 $) and a new Cinema i (2500$).
Olivier
anecdotally, i have heard of many people upgrading from the logos to the theatre, but never from the logos to a cinema...

personally, i have a logos and really like it. like all MLs it has a real presence, and likes a good amplifier. i had a THX rated MA-500 mono block driving it, but the logos really opened up when i put better amplification on it.
 

roberto

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zaphod said:
anecdotally, i have heard of many people upgrading from the logos to the theatre, but never from the logos to a cinema...

personally, i have a logos and really like it. like all MLs it has a real presence, and likes a good amplifier. i had a THX rated MA-500 mono block driving it, but the logos really opened up when i put better amplification on it.
Hola. Zaphod is right. Normally the change is for the Theater i, but I will try to listen both. The Logos is bigger than the Cinema i, but the Cinema i has the new micro-perf stator and clearspar tech. for more dynamics.
Logos is one of the best center channel speaker ever made...trust you ears and buy the one that you like most...you won´t regreat buying any of them. Both are great centers...hope this can help...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 
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aworkx

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zaphod said:
anecdotally, i have heard of many people upgrading from the logos to the theatre, but never from the logos to a cinema...
This would mean that the Logos is better than the Cinema ?
BTW, I heard the cinema yesterday. Sounds good but don't know more about matching the SL3.
I'll try the logos this week. What do I need to check to make sure the panel is in good shape ?

Thanks for help ;)
 

roberto

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aworkx said:
This would mean that the Logos is better than the Cinema ?
BTW, I heard the cinema yesterday. Sounds good but don't know more about matching the SL3.
I'll try the logos this week. What do I need to check to make sure the panel is in good shape ?

Thanks for help ;)
Hola aworkx. the Logos was the first ML center speaker. The Speaker that replaced the Logos is the Theather. At the same time, ML produced a smaller version, called Cinema for $ 1000.00 less and the sound close to the Theater. Now both are improoved with the micro-perf stator, clearspar tech. and a new power supply. Both are great speakers and the Cinema i sounds very good. Check that the one you are getting is with an "i". Happy listening,
trust your ears!!!
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 
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aworkx

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The logos doesn't exist with an "i" :(
The power supply is in.
 

roberto

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aworkx said:
The logos doesn't exist with an "i" :(
The power supply is in.
The Logos was descontinued I think in 95, 96. The new version of the Theater and the Cinema have an i. Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 
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aworkx

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I finally went for the Logos.
Sounds good. Adding a center channel brings more dynamics to my system.
However, it's not the perfect match with SL3. The voices play a bit louder than in the phantom mode and the dialogues seem to come directly out of the box. The Logos is at the bottom of the screen but not on the floor.
BTW, Have you ever considered using 2 smaller speakers as a center channel. For example : 2 aerius (one at each side of the screen).

Thanks for advices or experience ;)
 
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garmtz

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The Logos is the better match with your SL3 than the Cinema. I upgraded myself from Cinema (non-i version) to the Logos to the Theater i with my Aeon speakers.

The Logos is very sensitive to placement. Experiment with the angle of the stand: the center should point right up to your ears or even slightly above them to get the voices to appear more from out of the screen.

If the placement is correct, do use a sound pressure level meter to get the sound level from all the speakers EXACTLY identical. This is VERY important!!

When I had everything calibrated right, it was very hard to distinguish with the Logos if the sound came directly from the Logos or not, provided you were seated in the sweet spot.
 

LaserMark4

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Blending the "Up Front"

garmtz said:
If the placement is correct, do use a sound pressure level meter to get the sound level from all the speakers EXACTLY identical. This is VERY important!!

When I had everything calibrated right, it was very hard to distinguish with the Logos if the sound came directly from the Logos or not, provided you were seated in the sweet spot.
I’m in agreement with garmtz and have the same experience with an ML center as well (Theatre)--calibration is critical to ensure the levels are not competing (or more likely dominating) one speaker over the other. Ultimately the right placement, proper toe-in, and then proper level balancing will ensure “one voice” from the sound stage. Some pre amps and/or receivers make this an easier task than others, but if your unit has individual speaker control, this will definitely be achievable with the ML speakers you now own.

Experiment and keep tweaking!
 

zaphod

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aworkx said:
I finally went for the Logos.
aworkx said:
No one to help me ? :confused:

sorry, i missed your additional note. i have my logos at the floor level in front of the TV. when i installed it i had exactly the same problem - i initially put it down to different amplification because i was driving the logos with an old Mac mono tube amp.

gosh that sounded sweet​

but i wanted to see if i could make the logos dissapear. as Garmtz said, angle and level are very important.

if you search the archives of this forum, you will find some hints using a laser pointer to adjust the center channel angle. he mentions using a friend, but he doesn't mention using welding goggles which is certainly what i'd be wearing if someone started aiming a laser pointer at my face... :D

i found that if the logos was aimed incorrectly then the voices et al will not seem to come from the video image and that will make them stand out as not fully integrated into the soundfield.

anything that "stands out" is not fully integrated into the soundfield​

once i had angle set, i adjusted the level using the standard ratshack SPL meter. this tightened integration even more. remember the idea is to match all the speakers, not get them as loud as possible in the SPL testing. aim for the same level from all speakers usually in the range from 72 to 74 db on the meter.

once i had the speaker aligned and leveled correctly the difference between the phantom channel and the actual center was that when the center was being used, the center information had a wider sweet spot.

with the phantom center, only the person in the "2 channel sweet spot" got the center information dead center. people sitting to the left or right experienced a shift in the center image.

with the logos, moving to the left or right of the center seat doesn't really affect the position of the center information - voices still seem to come from the visual image.

when i eventually replaced the center channel tube amp with an amp that matched the rest of the system the logos dissapeared the final last bit as the colouration caused by the different amplification went away.

cheers.
 

JonFo

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I replied to the same question over at AVS as follows:

Aworkx said:
I finally went for the Logos.
Sounds good. Adding a center channel brings more dynamics in my system.
However, it's not the perfect match with SL3. The voices play a bit louder than in the phantom mode and the dialogues seem to come directly out of the box. The Logos is at the bottom of the screen but not on the floor.

Have you ever considered using 2 smaller speakers as a center channel. For example : 2 aerius (one at each side of the screen).

Thanks for advices or experience ;)
If you are not getting that perfect match, then there is still a setup issue. Integrating a center with dipole speakers is a bear no matter what the brand / model.

First, ensure the phase between L/R and center is correct. Use something like the Sound and Vision test disc to validate. But like I said, it's pretty tricky with dipoles (the SL3's), as the phase difference is a little hard to spot due to the wide stage the L or R speaker is throwing.

Second, use an SPL meter to adjust the level of the center. If it is overpowering the L/R, then it could be just too loud. But it’s not always that simple.

The next thing to double check is the delay setting for your center channel on the receiver or pre-pro, if the speaker is sitting in front of an RPTV (vs. below a wall mount or drop-down screen), it could be physically too far forward in the room relative to the L/R. That will cause earlier arrival of center channel info, tilting the perception of volume.

Even if physically behind the plane of the L/R, do check the delay setting, it should be calibrated per your pre-pro’s instructions.

Finally, it could an EQ balance issue, the Logos does have a dynamic tweeter for improved dispersion, which again tilts the perception towards the center, as it will have ‘brighter’ high end. Sometimes just turning down the treble for the center can help a bit.

Personally, I use a ton of speaker processors (DBX 260’s) and a full audio measurement suite with a calibrated mic to tune and balance my rig. But that’s pretty extreme, you should be able to get great results with a decent test disc, an SPL meter and some patience.

Hope that helps.
 
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