Listened to Source speakers today at Best Buy...

[Dreamer]

Well, I was in Raleigh NC today, and stopped by the Best Buy/Magnolia to see if they had any of the new MLs on display, and they DID have the Source on the floor.

They were hooked up to a BIG Denon receiver, and a Denon DVD player, so I didn't expect much, but they sounded pretty good. I was pretty impressed with these little ML's--they sound a lot like my Scenerios--perhaps a little more fluid, and with a little more bass.

However, they were set up ALL wrong--about 1 foot from the rear wall,, and toe'ed in so far that the center of the panels were pointing straight at the listening position, with the speakers set about 8ft apart...

I tried to tell the salesman that they needed to be moved to sound right, and asked if he could move them per my instruction. I even offered to get some CDs and a flashlight from my car to show him just how much of an improvement it would make over their current position.

I asked him if he'd ever heard of the "Jim Power's Toe-in Technique", or if the staff at this store had been trained by ML as to how to demo these speakers, and he looked at me like I was insane.

I told him that I'd been a Martin Logan owner for over 12 years, and owned two pair of ML speakers, and he still looked at me like I was a madman.

I then told him that I could almost GUARANTEE that he could increase his sales of ML speakers if only he would set them up the way they were supposed to be, and he told me, "We can't change their position--they are set that way to meet the floorplan, which comes from Corporate." Then he asked me if i wanted to talk to a manager...

Needless to say, I left.

I felt so sad for those little Source speakers. It must be terrible, living in a place like that, where nobody REALLY loves you...

And when I got home, I hugged my Sequels and Scenerios.

--Richard

 

[attyonline]

In regard to Power's placement method, is it detailed on this site? I have never heard of it before.

 

[Kenscollick]

Scroll down to tweaks

 

[VanDaRo]

Best Buy sells what they think they can move quickly. And perhaps Martin Logan satisfies this requirement -- and it's pure genius that ML got into such a wide market with their entry-level line.

But look at it this way, Dreamer... Those Logans sound better than everything else in that room ( and yes, that includes the Klipsches, which are excellent HT speakers). They'll sell themselves to the well-heeled.

~VDR

 

[Dreamer]

Well, I guess my point was, though, that the "well heeled" would expect the ML's in the showroom to sound like they've heard other MLs. And granted, even set up all wrong they DID sound better than anything else in the room, they didn't sound like Martin Logans should...

And secondly, another point is that I don't think the Source is REALLY aimed at "well heeled" electrostatic fans--it is aimed at a COMPLETELY different demographic--folks who have previously owned Klipsh, Polk, Focal, etc, who want to take the "next step" up the louspeaker food chain, but can't (or won't) pay $5 grand for a pair of Vantages. It is an "Entry Level" electrostatic meant to compete, sonically and price-wise, with the top end models from the "consumer brands".

And although to my electrostatic-loving ears, it DID sound better than anything in the room (including some box speakers that cost more), it DID not inspire a "wow" factor sonically. I think if they were set up optimally, they WOULD inspire "WOWs" from people, both those who were familiar with the ML sound, and those who think that $2000 Polk towers are the pinnacle of audio transducers and have never heard an electrostatic speaker.

The Source is designed, I believe, to be a sort of "fish hook" product--you dangle it in the pond, and get those 20- and 30-something consumers hooked with the hopes that when they hit their 40's or 50's they will move on up to the "big leagues". I may be wrong, but I think that is what ML is trying to do with these smaller, less sophisticated, and cheaper models. Also, they are tying to grab a slice of the "high-end mid-fi" market--the people who are shelling out $1500-2500 for Klipsch, Polk, Focal, Mirage, etc. ML has a clearly and indisputably superior product, even in the Source. But when retailers like Best Buy have them displayed in such an incorrect (and frankly, irresponsible) manner, it's no wonder many people have never heard of Martin Logan.

I would venture the theory that ML has a relatively small commission compared to companies like Polk and Klipch. Maybe THAT is why Best Buy doesn't try harder to sell what is an obviously superior product. I have worked in retail on commission, and believe me, the amount you're going to get on a sale can very dramatically influence the "rating" of a product.

That and the fact that about 99% of the people working in consumer electronics retail are barely literate, have NO interest in, background in, or training with the products they sell, and are essentially glorfied cashiers. They get more training in operating the cash register and understanding how "Purchase Agreements" work than they do with how different loudspeakers should be set up, or how different amps or receivers integrate with other gear. Believe me. I work in this business. Of all the sales people I know in major retailers in teh mid-Atlantic region, I am one of about three (and I've met and talked with HUNDREDS) who could be considered an "audiophile", and actually owns gear that most folks on this forum would count as worth a damn. I have never met a salesperson in a Best Buys, Tweeter, Circuit City, or other major retailer, that actually OWNS Martin Logans, Krell, Bryston, Wadia, Carver, Benchmark, or any other brand that is considered high-end. The fact is, that if you work in that segment of the market, you CAN'T AFFORD most of the higher-end products you sell, let alone REAL high-end gear. Even top salespeople in a place like Best Buy are only making an income that is 2 to 2.5 times the official "poverty level" of $10,400, which STILL puts them at a point where they are almost eligible for food stamps if they are single with no kids. (if they have a child, or are married, they ARE eligable for food stamps at that income)...

Since working in retail, I've developed a WHOLE new appreciation for the mindset of sales people. I've also had my contempt for "corporate management" in the USA reinforced 100-fold. And I've also had my opinions about the vast majority of consumers out there (that they are illiterate, ignorant, low-attention-span, idiots who put more emphasis on price tags than things like build quality, performance, and reliability--even for "big ticket" items like 50" TVs...)

--Richard

 

[DrJRapp]

Dreamer

It's not just BB that has a problem properly auditioning ML speakers. When I was in search of new speakers to replace my Klipsch 7 series I auditioned just about everything out there that fell in around $8-15K a pair and that of course included the Summit. The first dealer I visited to listen to The Summits had them set up all wrong...similar to what you experienced...too close to the front wall with high amounts of toe. Worse than that they were connected to a midrange Yamaha receiver...the whole screechy setup was an insult to my audiophile grade ears (lol). The second dealer had them set up out a proper distance from the front wall but too close to the side walls (so he could fit in a big set of Focals). At least this guy had the electronics somewhat right.... an Anthem Statement D1 and Halcro amps. I got an inkling of what The Summit was capable of but still didn't sound as good as my lead candidate which was the B&W 802D. They say third time is the charm and that turned out to be a truism beyond description. I was luckey enough to encounter a salesperson with a true understanding of ML, and a passion for them as well (he owns Summits & McIntosh himself). He had The Summits brough from the room they were being displayed into an empty room and hooked them up to a Krell setup that was already in the room. He then spent about 20 mins moving them around until he was satisfied with thei positioning. Only then did he allow me to enter the room and listen. I bought those Summits on the spot!!!... even though they were not the color I would have chosen.... OBTW This was in a Sound Advice store (which is Tweeters southern branch) surprise!..

 

[Satch]

Dreamer,

Your "Fish Hook" theory is spot on in my case. The closest thing to "High End" audio gear around here (central Florida east coast) is Best Buy in Melbourne.

I thought I'd live it up and go all out ($700-$1,000.) for a set of speakers. I heard the M.L. Montage speakers with the Dynamo sub and that was my introduction... Reel me in, Skippy!!! That was Oct. '07. You might notice that is also when joined up with this lovable bunch of nutcases. Now I have a pair of Vistas, Depth i, Ayre V-5xe, Cary SLP 98p, etc... Mom got the Montage's and Dynamo for Christmas. Speaking of Christmas, that new Spire is looking pretty tempting...

Satch

 

[VanDaRo]

Dreamer --

Wow. I guess you have strong feelings on this subject, and I'll take you word on it. And BTW... I pretty much agree with every point you mead.

~VDR

 

[tsmooth]

The Source is designed, I believe, to be a sort of "fish hook" product--you dangle it in the pond, and get those 20- and 30-something consumers hooked with the hopes that when they hit their 40's or 50's they will move on up to the "big leagues". I may be wrong, but I think that is what ML is trying to do with these smaller, less sophisticated, and cheaper models. Also, they are tying to grab a slice of the "high-end mid-fi" market--the people who are shelling out $1500-2500 for Klipsch, Polk, Focal, Mirage, etc. ML has a clearly and indisputably superior product, even in the Source. But when retailers like Best Buy have them displayed in such an incorrect (and frankly, irresponsible) manner, it's no wonder many people have never heard of Martin Logan.

I totally agree, because that is exactly what happened to me. At 22, I saw the Source online as soon as it came out. I had Polk Monitor 70s as my 2 channel speaker with a Denon 2307 bi-amping them and I had to get a piece of the ML action at that price point. Well, they made it in my system for all of about 6 months until I just fell in love with the look of the Vistas. Now the ball is rolling. Then you need something to power these babies, cabling to match the level of the speakers (and a source for that matter) and now I am hook line and sinker. Of course then you need a Motif, Dynamo, and Vignettes to complete the HT package. My "gateway drug" was the ML Source, now I have ML all around my theater and it is only a year later. For Pete's sake my surround speakers cost me more then any speaker purchase prior to picking up the Sources. I think there are a lot more like me out there just waiting to be blown away by these speakers, they just don't know where to find them.

 

[Craig]

"We can't change their position--they are set that way to meet the floorplan, which comes from Corporate."

It is ironic that they would probably sell more of these speakers if they violated "corporate policy". I understand they need to compromise on speaker positioning to fit all the other products in the room and I like that they now carry the smaller electrostats. However, I prefer the Tweeter stores that take the product line up a notch or two. But the Tweeter stores also have to make the same corporate floorplan speaker setup compromises. Although, the experienced salesmen in the Tweeter stores that I do business with would certainly reposition a speaker if the customer requested it.

 

[eknuds01]

I would also agree with many of Richard's points. They cut to the heart of audio-retail chains. Here's my (brief) take:

Over the years, Americans have seemed to be in a relentless pursuit of low prices. Maybe 15-20 years ago, the 'Mom and Pop' stores dotted the highways and side streets of the US. Yes, we still had strip malls and large department stores going that far back, but if you wanted to hit up a small, local, hardware store - you could do that. Today, it is difficult for the smaller, independent, stores to keep up with the large chains.

Since we want low prices for everything, the best way to do that is through large, big box, type stores. And you see those all over - be it Costco, Sam's BJ's, Best Buy, Circuit City, you name it. Nearly every store is the same and many are laid out and staffed in an identical fashion.

OK so you get low prices, but with that comes poor customer service, and since we are buying mass marketed, mass produced items - in general, the quality isn't there. Reliability, build quality, performance, etc all take a back seat to driving down price as much as possible.

Richard mentioned the sales commission for the ML speaker - that's probably true. Another angle is that the ML gear at Best Buy is probably considered to be 'high end' for them, and the markup isn't as much vs Polk, Klipsch, etc. Thus, the margins aren't very high and they don't push that product.

Regarding proper speaker set up. Yes, this drives me up the wall too. Chances are the sales staff gets next zero training on how to do this and most if not all of their sales staff have no technical degrees or background. Since the turnover at these stores is huge, they'll package their 'knowledge' into a binder and go over the 'essentials' in a 20 minute powerpoint presentation on how to set up and sell speakers.

When I was the new Best Buy in Columbia I didn't think the set up was that bad. Sure they could have spent a little time with moving the electronics and speakers around to achieve a more optimum balance of audio reproduction vs layout, but they won't do that...ever.

Why? It won't look as nice vs having all of the speakers pressed back against the wall and/or lined up side by side. They'll never reduce inventory or the product lineup in order to sell 4-5 pairs of speakers (and associated electronics) as best they can in order to maximize customer value.

The prime reason for this is that unlike Richard, 99% of the customers at Best Buy are not audiophiles. They won't take the time to properly set the stuff at home, so why should best buy make the same investment at the store? It is sad, but the sales staff and customers don't have the same passion we do. In fact, I've been to a few 'high end' salons and have walked away disappointed by the way things were arranged even when I was listening to gear that was an order of magnitude more expensive than any system at Best Buy.

Like I said before, you see this all over the place. The relentless pursuit of low prices has made product quality and customer service suffer across the board.

Erik