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Level limit?

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rynopr

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My friend that owns VMPS is under the impresion that ML's aren't made to play particularly loud. Is this true? Will it hurt ML speakers to play them loud?Is there another playing level standard for ML? I think this is true for Maggies/magna planar, but ML's aren't the same.

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kach22i

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I think the trick is to get the right sized speaker for the room - moving air and wall reinforcement will all add to the achievable sound pressure levels.

I've been told but not experienced that stats can "flap" when pushed too hard.

On my own speakers there is a sort of compression where it just does not play louder - this level is beyond what I can listen to without causing hearing damage.

Short term "yaya's" of pushing the speakers beyond what I consider a "natural limit" is not something I make a habit of. Bad for the whole chain of equipment to be that abusive.

There is also a perception of loudness which panel speakers do not or can not compete with conventional drivers. This is the "distortion" the listener may look for which tells them the speaker is being "overdriven" or is "loud". The panel speakers will not recreate cone driver distortion as they are not cones.

People who prefer to listen to this level of distortion worry me, why they think it is good or enjoyable I don't know. We have all met these people, typically young, stupid and drunk.........although the order is arguable.

I can understand Jimi Hendrix tube amp style guitar amp distortion as part of the music - this is very different in my mind.

I suppose this can be related to brightness or glare. Studies of the human eye show that people judge lighting levels based on "glare" and not actual light levels. It's never bright enough until they suffer eye strain from glare - go figure. :confused:
 
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rynopr

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No, I understand. I don't want my ears damaged more than they already are with age. I'm just talking about listening loud--not stupid loud. Essentially, if they aren't flapping then you are alright...they can't be damaged?
 

kach22i

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rynopr said:
Essentially, if they aren't flapping then you are alright...they can't be damaged?
Like I said I've never heard "flapping" on my Martin Logans, was told by a friend that he tought they could be pushed to flap.

I looked up the topic on the Tube Aslyum, looks like the wire on Maggies can come off the mylar and or there might be an alignment problem which can cause flapping.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl

The sound compression and beaming that M/L's might experience at high sound pressure levels is a warning to back off or pay the price.

When an amp clips it causes distortion, this distortion can and may cause speaker damage. I don't know if one can also damage the M/L crossover or step-down transformer, but the cone woofer sure can blow (see classified current listing).

Other brands of stats have been reported to "spark" or "arc" when driven too far and might even catch fire. Although these things seemed to of happened only in the late 1970's or early 1980's and not with current technology/brands.
 

kach22i

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http://www.martinlogan.com/prodigy_review_hifi_aug00.html
I knew better than to expect a head-banging rock performance, but was nonetheless favourably impressed by its maximum sound level combined with a fast, expressive and notably well integrated bass line. There was never any question of running out of bass; ample dynamic range kept up with the feather-light panel transducer element. As you drive the speaker to its limit, the treble shuts down a little and the mid becomes increasingly prominent, gaining attack but also an undesirable hardness of tone. This is a bit like an overdriven single-ended tube amplifier, and it's easy to tell where the limits are (non-destructive in any case) and back off the volume.
 

Robin

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Level Limit...

kach22i said:
Like I said I've never heard "flapping" on my Martin Logans, was told by a friend that he tought they could be pushed to flap.

I looked up the topic on the Tube Aslyum, looks like the wire on Maggies can come off the mylar and or there might be an alignment problem which can cause flapping.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl

The sound compression and beaming that M/L's might experience at high sound pressure levels is a warning to back off or pay the price.

When an amp clips it causes distortion, this distortion can and may cause speaker damage. I don't know if one can also damage the M/L crossover or step-down transformer, but the cone woofer sure can blow (see classified current listing).

Other brands of stats have been reported to "spark" or "arc" when driven too far and might even catch fire. Although these things seemed to of happened only in the late 1970's or early 1980's and not with current technology/brands.
kach22i and rynopr,

I spoke with the sales manager at my local Magnolia Hi-Fi, just prior to purchasing my Scrit i's. This guy was very knowledgible and has toured the ML plant in Lawance Kansas sevral times and spoken extensively to many of the tech.'s that accually build the speakers at ML. He had asked ML tech.'s about the Limits of ML speakers. The Manager told me in reponse to my asking him, "Will loud playing harm ML speakers electrostatic panels and / or their cone bass drivers?" The Manager told me ML speakers can not be over driven, even if I have a very powerful amplifier driving my ML's. He said, only so much power will go to the speakers. He gave me the example of a garden hose and the flow of H2O through it. My Script i's will only accept 150 watts of power, even if my amp has 350 watts to give. He said, he had never seen a ML cone or pannel blown beacuse ML speakers have electronic current flow regulator / features, which protect the pannels and cone drivers. He said, "If any premenant damage ever occurred ML wanted to know about it and would replace the speaker for free..." :) I'm sure Jim Power would agree.
I don't think normal loud listening will cause any damage, or even at "stupid loud" listening. I would however caution to "Proctect your ears", where possible so your ears can listen another day... ;)
 

kach22i

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Robin said:
He said, "If any premenant damage ever occurred ML wanted to know about it and would replace the speaker for free..." :) I'm sure Jim Power would agree.
Jim Power sent me a "free" bass driver after Almas HIFi in Michigan refused to fix the speaker. It was an off the testing shelf speaker with a different sized dust dome cap, but you can't see it in normal lighting and it sounds perfectly matched to the other one.

I have never read anything about a "current flow regulator". Sounds a little too Bose-like to me. :D
 

Reverb

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The quad 989’s have a voltage limiter so you cannot over power them. I found a review for the quads some ware on the net and it have a paragraph on this why electrostatic speakers need them.

As to the stator slap, we had a member a few years ago with a pair of limited edition CLSIIz’s that experienced the stator slap on several occasions. He said you chould here a physical slap from the stator, he back the volume down a notch or two and the slap when away, no harm no fowl.
 

zaphod

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Zip3kx07 said:
The quad 989’s have a voltage limiter so you cannot over power them. I found a review for the quads some ware on the net and it have a paragraph on this why electrostatic speakers need them.
earlier quads (read ESL-57) would arc if pushed too hard. it's an important consideration with older quads. someday i'll have to pull the grills and peek at mine, but they sound great so i don't bother.

Zip3kx07 said:
As to the stator slap, we had a member a few years ago with a pair of limited edition CLSIIz’s that experienced the stator slap on several occasions. He said you chould here a physical slap from the stator, he back the volume down a notch or two and the slap when away, no harm no fowl.
i had mine slap once. CD of Japanese drummers. once was enough.
 

Robin

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ML's can not be over powered / amplified...

Zip3kx07 said:
The quad 989’s have a voltage limiter so you cannot over power them. I found a review for the quads some ware on the net and it have a paragraph on this why electrostatic speakers need them.
Joe, kach22i or anyone,

I beleive their are eletronics built into all of ML speakers to prevent them from being over powered / over driven. I do not know what those electronics might be called inside ML speakers, but I beleive the information, which I received from the sales manager (at Magnolia Hi-Fi) was true and correct, "It is impossible to over amp. / or play too loud, ML electrostatic panels / cone drivers." If anyone here can tell me why this information is incorrect, please let me know, as I really would like to know if it not true... ;)
 

hakalugi

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On topic: i've yet to hear a slap or see a spark. the sound get's compressed when driven too hard, plus my buzzing right bass panel gets too annoying at high levels LOL to stay there for too long.


begin off-topic:

zaphod said:
earlier quads (read ESL-57) would arc if pushed too hard. it's an important consideration with older quads. someday i'll have to pull the grills and peek at mine, but they sound great so i don't bother.



i had mine slap once. CD of Japanese drummers. once was enough.
Hey Zaphod,

I remembered your gear:

logans: CLS, script, logos, more script sub: DIY
power: meitner pre/processer: bryston
DVD: RP82 LD: pioneer/B&K switch&scalers: extron
CD: meitner TT: oracle/SME/koetsu reels: tascam, akai

and was surprised to hear of your Quads, too. you must have a lot of room! :)

Good news, i have a Bryston 1.7 on the way. it'll be here Friday. Bought it used from Audiogon (a store employee looking to fund his 2.0 purchase instead of upgrading the internals :) )

Sadly, i sold my Meitner gear to fund part of the Bryston. The pre-amp was very cool (pa-6 with phono) but i don't have the space for a separate '2 channel only' system and the bryston's 'bypass mode' will feed my CLS es nicely i think.

My acurus 200x3 (old version) pushing amost 400w x 2 to the CLS was just not a fair comparison to the Meitners (100+ each) the subtleties of the Meitner faded when the control of the Acurus pulled ahead. So I sold the pair of MTR-100s too.

i too, just finished a DIY sub... seems like a funny parallel, what's yours? have a URL?
 

C.A.P

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Never herd of voltage regulators or what ever!! but the Logans will slap if over driven , especially old panels that are on the way out ( had it happen ) . Now the volume at which they will play has a lot to do with the amp driving them. I can hit deafening levels with my Krell and Quests , with no flapping (they are new panels) but , I think they will eventually break down and wear faster at those levels . Room size has a lot to do with volume levels also , a 10x10 room will fill with sound faster than a 20x20 room. It will take a larger amp to get that db level the same, that being said it better be a quality amp as it is pushing the Logans harder and they will reveal whats up stream of them , also smaller Logans wont fill a large room as well as larger ones
 

tonyc

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I can tell you that my Aeons (aided by a Descent) will play louder than my Apogee Divas with half the power. I listen to my Deep Purple Machine Head DVDA and my DSOTM SACD at levels which drive my cats under the bed in a room at the other end of the house and I still haven't heard them double or give up.
 
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