Just wanting to express my viewpoint

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Spaceghost1

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Hi, my name is Kevin and was looking at reviews of Klipsch sub woofers to see if I could get some more less driven marketing answers but didn’t have much luck. I remember them being about barely above half way as far as ratings in their class. Still curious but in 2014 I replaced my Klipsch sub for a Martin Logan Dynamo 1000 as the first stage of rebuilding my old system. Improved it by 50%. It’s kinda depressing to read what has happened to the company on other threads and the lack of enthusiasm for ML. At $1000 I have been satisfied with this sub for 8 years now. I listen to music, watch movies and play video games on my system in a 12’ x 15’ living room with an open floor plan so you see everything from the kitchen as well. Since I’m recently retired and worked a lot out of town I haven’t even messed with it hardly and it also has low “miles”. My total system is probably only $5000 (roughly) and I am not going to do significant upgrades that push that number much higher. If I had more income I would dabble in becoming an audiophile but I don’t pretend I am but it’s interesting to read reviews and forums to learn more, which I’ve been doing for several years now. Love my woofer though.
 

msimanyi

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Welcome Kevin!

I think the internet has promoted... antagonism in many forums. I don't personally feel there's a lack of enthusiasm for ML, but I'm sure there are posts here and elsewhere to support that opinion.

For me, that's simply not the case.

Bass is such a deceptive quality. Most people think it's just "boom." I currently have ~1995 Aerius speakers (bought new by me and repaneled in 2020), which shouldn't be particularly impressive. My brother was floored by the effect of adding BalancedForce 210 subwoofers to the mix. It's not just the frequency response that you notice. It's the soundstage, even at quiet levels, that impressed him the most.

One thing you can consider for not much money is getting yourself a good microphone and learning how to use Room EQ Wizard (REW) to optimize your Dynamo's location and settings. Website link: REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

Optimizing your subwoofer's performance - as well as your speakers' performance - could yield some impressive results. There's a relatively steep learning curve, but I find it quite rewarding and interesting. I am a complete novice at this stuff, but there are several members here who are quite well versed on matters regarding bass and speaker setup.

Enjoy the music!

Mike
 
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Robert D

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I agree, I don't think there is a "lack of enthusiasm for ML". The only complaint I see is how they increased price 2x in around a year or so. We still have a good number of members on here buying new speakers at the new high prices. To me that show enthusiasm for the brand.
 

Spaceghost1

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Welcome Kevin!

I think the internet has promoted... antagonism in many forums. I don't personally feel there's a lack of enthusiasm for ML, but I'm sure there are posts here and elsewhere to support that opinion.

For me, that's simply not the case.

Bass is such a deceptive quality. Most people think it's just "boom." I currently have ~1995 Aerius speakers (bought new by me and repaneled in 2020), which shouldn't be particularly impressive. My brother was floored by the effect of adding BalancedForce 210 subwoofers to the mix. It's not just the frequency response that you notice. It's the soundstage, even at quiet levels that impressed him the most.

One thing you can consider for not much money is getting yourself a good microphone and learning how to use Room EQ Wizard (REW) to optimize your Dynamo's location and settings. REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

Optimizing your subwoofer's performance - as well as your speakers' performance - could yield some impressive results. There's a relatively steep learning curve, but I find it quite rewarding and interesting. I am a complete novice at this stuff, but there are several members here who are quite well versed on matters regarding bass and speaker setup.

Enjoy the music!

Mike
I use my YPAO mic on my Yamaha TSR 5830 to balance my room so I hope it did my sub some justice. As I may have mentioned before the Dynamo 1000 was the very first component used in rebuilding my entire sound system and that’s when I discovered just how important good bass is.
 

Reverb

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Welcome, Kevin. Enjoy the forum!
 

Brandon Hartwick

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I agree, I don't think there is a "lack of enthusiasm for ML". The only complaint I see is how they increased price 2x in around a year or so. We still have a good number of members on here buying new speakers at the new high prices. To me that show enthusiasm for the brand.
The Renaissance 15As are now $37,500 Canadian for what is basically 2 woofers and a large ESL panel with DSP added. I understand that these are produced at low volume and being made in Kansas ML will certainly have big bills to pay, but there comes a point where things are just no longer within reach of many, many people.

I will say that I continue to be impressed with their tech support, but even replacement part pricing is getting nuts.
 

Spaceghost1

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The Renaissance 15As are now $37,500 Canadian for what is basically 2 woofers and a large ESL panel with DSP added. I understand that these are produced at low volume and being made in Kansas ML will certainly have big bills to pay, but there comes a point where things are just no longer within reach of many, many people.

I will say that I continue to be impressed with their tech support, but even replacement part pricing is getting nuts.
About the same time I purchased my Dynamo 1000 I was looking into a pair of Klipsch Heresys and remember them being above $1700, but now, 8 years later they are $3200. I think that’s a big jump in a short time, like ML has done now. You have a valid point on things being put out of a lot of people’s reach.
 

Robert D

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The Renaissance 15As are now $37,500 Canadian for what is basically 2 woofers and a large ESL panel with DSP added. I understand that these are produced at low volume and being made in Kansas ML will certainly have big bills to pay, but there comes a point where things are just no longer within reach of many, many people.

I will say that I continue to be impressed with their tech support, but even replacement part pricing is getting nuts.
I agree, the price is more than I can afford. The replacement panels at $2000 for my Prodigies seemed ok to me. I have a feeling they are even more now. Its like the price of building a new home now, just insane. Prices on so many things have gotten crazy, so much so that I have stopped making any big purchases. This has to end sometime, it cant continue like it is.
 

Robert D

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About the same time I purchased my Dynamo 1000 I was looking into a pair of Klipsch Heresys and remember them being above $1700, but now, 8 years later they are $3200. I think that’s a big jump in a short time, like ML has done now. You have a valid point on things being put out of a lot of people’s reach.
The Aragon 2 channel amp I have I purchased 7 years ago for $4200. Now it is selling for $14,000! Crazy shit. So many things are like that.
 

Spaceghost1

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Sure is. Im glad I bought it when I did. It has been a great amp. Im using it to power my big Prodigy speakers.
I couldn’t afford to be an audiophile on my retirement income but I like what I have and it seamlessly fills my living room with sound. Probably upgrade my receiver and mains one step but that’s really all the room can handle but I wouldn’t mind throwing a pair of Heresys in there 😁.
 

Robert D

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I couldn’t afford to be an audiophile on my retirement income but I like what I have and it seamlessly fills my living room with sound. Probably upgrade my receiver and mains one step but that’s really all the room can handle but I wouldn’t mind throwing a pair of Heresys in there 😁.
Prices now are insane. If my amp blew up and was not repairable I probably would not get another, at least not new. No way am I spending $14,000 on an amp.
 

Bernard

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The Renaissance 15As are now $37,500 Canadian for what is basically 2 woofers and a large ESL panel with DSP added. I understand that these are produced at low volume and being made in Kansas ML will certainly have big bills to pay, but there comes a point where things are just no longer within reach of many, many people.

I will say that I continue to be impressed with their tech support, but even replacement part pricing is getting nuts.
MLs are actually made in Ontario (Mississauga, I think).
 

Brandon Hartwick

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MLs are actually made in Ontario (Mississauga, I think).
I never realized this, i had a look on the website and indeed they do have a manufacturing facility in Canada. Didn't realize it's in Mississauga, I live about 1-1/2 hours away.

No wonder they're $37,000, it all makes sense now 😂
 

Big Dog RJ

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The Aragon 2 channel amp I have I purchased 7 years ago for $4200. Now it is selling for $14,000! Crazy shit. So many things are like that.
Hey Rob, I missed the main amplifier that you were using with your Prodigy's... Aragon, outstanding!
Brings back many memories, going way back to my under-grad years in Chicago 93/95. There was another highend store I used to visit in Naperville, can't recall the name but they were top dealers for Meridian, Lexicon, B&W, NHT, and Aragon gear. My ever first experience with Aragon was in that very store, big Aragon amp with pre and Aragon Dac driving a pair of B&W Matrix 801's. It was true reference quality indeed!

The price range was way beyond anything I could afford at the time but later on I ended up getting the Krell and ML SL3's from the Sound Lab also located in Naperville. That was my go to store for ML & Krell, and later on CJ. They had a good line up of top end CJ tube gear at the time. I believe they've closed many years ago.

Is Aragon still made though and where? I thought it was one of those legendary brands that ceased production and closed up... I don't know.

Best, RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

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Yes, speaking of pricing, things are going bonkers everywhere, not just in highend audio. Speaking of which, just around 2019/20 during covid lockdown, the very last pair of CLX's sold for 50grand AUD. Now the Ren15a's are priced at 50grand and above depending on the finish. The 13A's are around 32grand and the 11A's are around 15grand. The Classic 9's are about half that.

Gone are the days where you can work hard, save up a bit and afford the highend... no chance now Charlie!

There are certain deals that only a handful of dealers are willing to do, and they are the ones who will gain a loyal customer base, just like my primary ML dealer, great chap! Always willing to help out in any way.

Unfortunately, in this business scenario I'm not sure how these prices are structured... for now the Neolith's are a cool 160grand!
One brand of tube gear that I've been so familiar with since I was a teen, is Conrad johnson. I currently own four pieces of their top end gear but it's now considered vintage! It was probably a miracle that I could afford it about a decade ago but now forget it!

The starting price point of CJ gear in Aus is around 7grand, and that's the most entry level integrated control amplifier. The preamps start at 9grand and goes upto 40grand for the top of the line Art88. The power amps start at 16grand and go upto 80grand, ha! No worries mate, just write that cheque or swipe that platinum card shall we!

My days of must have upgrades are over, and I was fortunate enough to put together all this gear starting from scratch over again since 2004/05. It took that long up until 2018 to acquire the CLX's, so I'm done! The only thing I do now, apart from getting the BF210 just recently, is I upgrade or mod the existing tube gear. This involves a lot of skill and steady hands and lot of knowledge in power supply design in Class A topology. Once the mods are done then it takes time to arrive at an ideal balance of trouble free operation, in terms of thermal stability and performance, to reduce levels of distortion and keep power supplies under control without going into thermal overload.

It took around three years to get these mods done, which included original parts and certification from the main brand. Now, that these mods have been done, I can confirm that it was totally worth it, mainly because it's performance sometimes surpasses the latest gear which costs 10 times more! And for what... most probably a marginal improvement in the latest gear... no point.

My benchmark in percentage of overall performance improvement must be at 40% and above. Or at least thereabouts...say 35% minimum. If the new gear isn't going to provide me that extra 35 to 40% in improvement then it's just a waste of money. These marginal improvements are not worth it, they're meant only to get aroused and entice the owner's who've already purchased the top of the line... only to learn that in another year or two, that top of the line is now surpassed and labelled as vintage!

So be it maties! Once your system has achieved a certain threshold, that's it! Trying to better that it terns of exhorbitant spend just because that new gear is supposed to be the latest & greatest... well... I don't think so. Again, 40% improvement? Ok... at what price? 80grand for a pair of monoblocks! Mmm... must be really desperate to scratch that ego. Must have...must have...

As for me, it's the end of the road. Hats off to the lofty gear and those who can afford such high end prices, nothing wrong with that and respect 🙏.
For those who've already reached the threshold, just relaaax. Pour that scotch, light that cigar and enjoy those fine tunes! 👌 😎
Woof! RJ
 

Robert D

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Hey Rob, I missed the main amplifier that you were using with your Prodigy's... Aragon, outstanding!
Brings back many memories, going way back to my under-grad years in Chicago 93/95. There was another highend store I used to visit in Naperville, can't recall the name but they were top dealers for Meridian, Lexicon, B&W, NHT, and Aragon gear. My ever first experience with Aragon was in that very store, big Aragon amp with pre and Aragon Dac driving a pair of B&W Matrix 801's. It was true reference quality indeed!

The price range was way beyond anything I could afford at the time but later on I ended up getting the Krell and ML SL3's from the Sound Lab also located in Naperville. That was my go to store for ML & Krell, and later on CJ. They had a good line up of top end CJ tube gear at the time. I believe they've closed many years ago.

Is Aragon still made though and where? I thought it was one of those legendary brands that ceased production and closed up... I don't know.

Best, RJ
It's made by Indy Labs in Indianapolis. They also own Acurus.

Indy Audio Labs
 

Robert D

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twich54

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Yes, speaking of pricing, things are going bonkers everywhere, not just in highend audio. Speaking of which, just around 2019/20 during covid lockdown, the very last pair of CLX's sold for 50grand AUD. Now the Ren15a's are priced at 50grand and above depending on the finish. The 13A's are around 32grand and the 11A's are around 15grand. The Classic 9's are about half that.

Gone are the days where you can work hard, save up a bit and afford the highend... no chance now Charlie!

There are certain deals that only a handful of dealers are willing to do, and they are the ones who will gain a loyal customer base, just like my primary ML dealer, great chap! Always willing to help out in any way.

Unfortunately, in this business scenario I'm not sure how these prices are structured... for now the Neolith's are a cool 160grand!
One brand of tube gear that I've been so familiar with since I was a teen, is Conrad johnson. I currently own four pieces of their top end gear but it's now considered vintage! It was probably a miracle that I could afford it about a decade ago but now forget it!

The starting price point of CJ gear in Aus is around 7grand, and that's the most entry level integrated control amplifier. The preamps start at 9grand and goes upto 40grand for the top of the line Art88. The power amps start at 16grand and go upto 80grand, ha! No worries mate, just write that cheque or swipe that platinum card shall we!

My days of must have upgrades are over, and I was fortunate enough to put together all this gear starting from scratch over again since 2004/05. It took that long up until 2018 to acquire the CLX's, so I'm done! The only thing I do now, apart from getting the BF210 just recently, is I upgrade or mod the existing tube gear. This involves a lot of skill and steady hands and lot of knowledge in power supply design in Class A topology. Once the mods are done then it takes time to arrive at an ideal balance of trouble free operation, in terms of thermal stability and performance, to reduce levels of distortion and keep power supplies under control without going into thermal overload.

It took around three years to get these mods done, which included original parts and certification from the main brand. Now, that these mods have been done, I can confirm that it was totally worth it, mainly because it's performance sometimes surpasses the latest gear which costs 10 times more! And for what... most probably a marginal improvement in the latest gear... no point.

My benchmark in percentage of overall performance improvement must be at 40% and above. Or at least thereabouts...say 35% minimum. If the new gear isn't going to provide me that extra 35 to 40% in improvement then it's just a waste of money. These marginal improvements are not worth it, they're meant only to get aroused and entice the owner's who've already purchased the top of the line... only to learn that in another year or two, that top of the line is now surpassed and labelled as vintage!

So be it maties! Once your system has achieved a certain threshold, that's it! Trying to better that it terns of exhorbitant spend just because that new gear is supposed to be the latest & greatest... well... I don't think so. Again, 40% improvement? Ok... at what price? 80grand for a pair of monoblocks! Mmm... must be really desperate to scratch that ego. Must have...must have...

As for me, it's the end of the road. Hats off to the lofty gear and those who can afford such high end prices, nothing wrong with that and respect 🙏.
For those who've already reached the threshold, just relaaax. Pour that scotch, light that cigar and enjoy those fine tunes! 👌 😎
Woof! RJ

Big Dog, as a 68 year old retiree I'm right there with 'ya !! hell, even my whisky and cigar prices are through the roof !!
 
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