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i just gotta say i'm BLOWN AWAY!!

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Jinx

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ok. so here's a question. how come more manufacturers do not use ESL technology in their speakers? i mean, i can hardly believe the detail and vocals comming from my sequel II's. i'm absolutely blown away. i can't wait to get a ML center and then some rears! woot woot!

oh ya, and when i went back to my standard cone speakers, the sound was "hollow" is the best way i can describe it. i mean, there was just no comparison, and these are 15 year old speakers...WTF eh?
 
K

karma

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ok. so here's a question. how come more manufacturers do not use ESL technology in their speakers? i mean, i can hardly believe the detail and vocals comming from my sequel II's. i'm absolutely blown away. i can't wait to get a ML center and then some rears! woot woot!

oh ya, and when i went back to my standard cone speakers, the sound was "hollow" is the best way i can describe it. i mean, there was just no comparison, and these are 15 year old speakers...WTF eh?
HI Jinx,
I’m very glad you like your Sequels II's. I need to tell you that not all conventional speakers sound "hollow". There are many very fine cone type speakers on the market so don't make the mistake of putting them all down. ML has real competition.

That said, I also wonder why more companies don't go the ESL route. I think there are many reasons. First, ML and other ESL companies must develop their own panel technology. You can't open a catalog and order drivers and crossovers and screw them into a box. That plus the panel technology is complex and requires a huge investment in R&D. Another reason is that ESL's do not offer the total solution. ESL panels have several natural technical drawbacks that limit their appeal. Bass, for example, is a traditional problem. ML tries to overcome this by using hybrid designs that, IMHO, are not totally successful.

ESL's place very strict demands on the room and speaker placement. ESL's are difficult to drive. Many amplifiers are not up to the job. Because of ESL's incredible clarity, very fine and expensive electronics are needed. ESL's have dynamic range limitations. Many ESL's have reliability problems that ML has mostly overcome. This is just a short list.

ESL's have typically been aimed at the true audiophile who is willing to work within the limitations to gain the incredible rewards. Not everybody is willing to do so. Thus, the potential market is much smaller than for cone speakers. Maybe someday ESL's will become the dominant technology but that day is not soon. Personally, I do not think that will happen. Cone speakers will continue to improve and continue to dominate.

Remember, cone loudspeaker technology has made huge strides in the past 20 years. ESL's sonic lead is not what it used to be. That said I own ESL's and would not trade for cone speakers. No one has been more of an advocate for ESL's than me. But even I must admit that here are other good solutions available.

Sparky
 

Tube60

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I have a pair of original Sequels from the late '80s, and I was blown away as well! There's so much more detail and clarity compared to the previous speakers I had (Infinity 1000s) and image stability as well. And yet I can see room for improvement! One of these days I'll upgrade the crossovers and power supplies. The slight downside of my MLs is that they've revealed some issues in my preamp, like a mis-tracking volume control, but that for me is just another challenge! For the price I paid for these Sequels, I could not IMO buy new speakers in the same price class and come anywhere near what my teenage Sequels can do! But don't forget, this is just the beginning of a journey, not the end of it. One day you'll upgrade to something more current out of ML's catalog; I plan on saving up for a pair of Summits one day!
 
J

Jinx

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well, i paid 1100.00 plus 100.00 canadian for these speakers, and i say for the money i am way way way ahead. i know there are some amazing cone speakers out there, such as thiels whichi have also always wanted, and i will own some one day, but for now these are definitely the best speakers i have ever owned and i am thrilled.
 

Tube60

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well, i paid 1100.00 plus 100.00 canadian for these speakers, and i say for the money i am way way way ahead.......best speakers i have ever owned and i am thrilled.
I paid $800.00 U.S. for mine and that included replacement panels, although the previous owner installed one of the replacements only, and ran them that way for about three months. They're supposed to be replaced by the pair so there's no mismatch, so what sense of logic he had in doing that I've no idea. Eat some now and save some for later logic? Perhaps.....:confused:
Fortunately there's no discernible imbalance, so I'm lucky.
 
J

Jinx

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800.00 us is a great price, however, things go for MUCH more here in Canada...so believe me 1100.00 was a great price, 1200.00 shipped to me from across the province. i'm not unhappy with that at all
 

amey01

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ok. so here's a question. how come more manufacturers do not use ESL technology in their speakers? i mean, i can hardly believe the detail and vocals comming from my sequel II's. i'm absolutely blown away. i can't wait to get a ML center and then some rears! woot woot!

oh ya, and when i went back to my standard cone speakers, the sound was "hollow" is the best way i can describe it. i mean, there was just no comparison, and these are 15 year old speakers...WTF eh?
Electrostatic speakers do sound better but they are not for the faint hearted! They are not "Plug&Play" speakers by any means......

1: They require careful positioning
2: They are often large
3: They are hard to drive, and require very high-end amplification in particular
4: They have shortcomings in the bass
5: They require regular maintenance such as the vacuuming we all know well

From a manufacturers point of view, they require very specific implementation which is not freely available. You can get on the internet and find many a program to design boxes and crossovers for cones, but electrostatic panels? It is not "known" or "common" technology, therefore manufacturers either don't have the resources to invest or can't be bothered. Also as stated, they require very specific and custom manufacturing - you can't just open a catalogue and order 100 cones.
 
K

karma

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Electrostatic speakers do sound better but they are not for the faint hearted! They are not "Plug&Play" speakers by any means......

1: They require careful positioning
2: They are often large
3: They are hard to drive, and require very high-end amplification in particular
4: They have shortcomings in the bass
5: They require regular maintenance such as the vacuuming we all know well

From a manufacturers point of view, they require very specific implementation which is not freely available. You can get on the internet and find many a program to design boxes and crossovers for cones, but electrostatic panels? It is not "known" or "common" technology, therefore manufacturers either don't have the resources to invest or can't be bothered. Also as stated, they require very specific and custom manufacturing - you can't just open a catalogue and order 100 cones.
HI amey,
Gee, this sounds like an echo (check the first reply in this thread). At least we agree.

Sparky
 

jfm

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Among the things that drove me to MLs:

1. Early on I found that I was sensitive to tweeters. The instant I hear sound coming out a tweeter, especially many metallic dome tweeters, I get distracted and that's what I focus on.

2. Box colorations also distract me. When I hear sounds being localized in a box I lose focus on the music.

3. Related to the 2 points above, I've always liked the effect of speakers disappearing, leaving only the players.

No mystery I use ML speakers! You too?

Having said that, some people don't like ESL sound. They look for the sizzle of a tweeter, even a Maggie's ribbon tweeter is good for them, hence the easy crossover from dynamics to Maggies.

They don't like what they call the "ghost-like" sound of MLs. They want their sound more meaty.

And they have issues with macrodynamics, which MLs won't provide as heftily as some dynamic speakers.

To each his own!

Diversity is great isn't it!
 

jazz55

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ok. so here's a question. how come more manufacturers do not use ESL technology in their speakers? i mean, i can hardly believe the detail and vocals comming from my sequel II's. i'm absolutely blown away. i can't wait to get a ML center and then some rears! woot woot!

oh ya, and when i went back to my standard cone speakers, the sound was "hollow" is the best way i can describe it. i mean, there was just no comparison, and these are 15 year old speakers...WTF eh?
Hi Jinx,
I don't have an answer to your question, but as my first post, I'd like to make a comment anyway. Like you, I'm new to this forum, having recently "converted" to the ML sound by investing in a used pair of 5-6 year-old SL3s. I must say that among other things, I am very pleased with the detail I am hearing, though on the downside, I find that many of my albums and CD's are not as good to listen to as I once thought. As many have written, MLs require high quality components. Not that my old speakers are that bad (Energy Reference Connoisseurs), but they are 18 years old and the turntable and CD player are also dated. I'm on a "three-year upgrade " plan so I hope to learn as much as I can from this and other forums to help me choose my next components. Thanks to your and other's comments, I am quickly getting back into this addictive hobby (after being lured to the 'dark side' ---golf---for about 12 years).:D
Sorry for such a long first post, but I noticed you're in Windsor, and I'd like to add that I was fortunate enough to attend the Bantam baseball nationals this summer with my son and his team and we thoroughly enjoyed the city, the weather and the hospitality!
jazz55
(Oh, I almost forgot...hi everybody!!!):cheers:
 

charliemike

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Hi Jinx,
I don't have an answer to your question, but as my first post, I'd like to make a comment anyway. Like you, I'm new to this forum, having recently "converted" to the ML sound by investing in a used pair of 5-6 year-old SL3s. I must say that among other things, I am very pleased with the detail I am hearing, though on the downside, I find that many of my albums and CD's are not as good to listen to as I once thought. As many have written, MLs require high quality components. Not that my old speakers are that bad (Energy Reference Connoisseurs), but they are 18 years old and the turntable and CD player are also dated. I'm on a "three-year upgrade " plan so I hope to learn as much as I can from this and other forums to help me choose my next components. Thanks to your and other's comments, I am quickly getting back into this addictive hobby (after being lured to the 'dark side' ---golf---for about 12 years).:D
Sorry for such a long first post, but I noticed you're in Windsor, and I'd like to add that I was fortunate enough to attend the Bantam baseball nationals this summer with my son and his team and we thoroughly enjoyed the city, the weather and the hospitality!
jazz55
(Oh, I almost forgot...hi everybody!!!):cheers:
I am in a similar situation I think. I bought amazing SL3s because I got a good deal for them but I don't have any way to use them.

Yes it's much like buying a Ferrari with no driver's license. I never said it made sense ;)

Please keep us in the loop as you test equipment and make decisions!

Welcome to the the forum. These folks are amazing and very helpful :)
 

benleeys

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I am in a similar situation I think. I bought amazing SL3s because I got a good deal for them but I don't have any way to use them.
Hi charlie,
Incredible! What do you do with your SL3s then? Stroke them every now and then and talk to them? :cool: Hope you'll find some good gear to mate them up with soon and enjoy them as they were meant to be. Get them to sing to you instead!
Ben
 
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IWalker

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charliemike, have you ever considered getting a pro-amp for $300 or so? You can e-bay a new Crown XLS402B which is rated down to 2 ohms for $300-$350.

I'm in a similar boat (you can see my system #151 in the member system forum) in that I just bought some quest zs, but don't have the funds to give them "appropriate" ampliication yet. I'm sure the difference between the amp I have and the amp I want will be huge, but I'm getting to enjoy my speakers on a daily basis now. An added advantage is, if you want to go tubes...you can bi-amp your SL3s....the proamp on the bottom, and the tubes on the top...so you get the best of both worlds. That's my plan, with tubes on the panel, a pro-amp on my midbass array, and either a stand-alone sub or another pro-amp on the subs.

There are other proamps for even cheaper (around $200) that could work, though I'd look for anything you get to be rated into 2ohms.
 

IWalker

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They don't like what they call the "ghost-like" sound of MLs. They want their sound more meaty.
I have a theory (which I probably read somewhere...so it's not really mine) that almost the sole reason for that ghost-like sound is "lean" mid-bass. Not saying the output isn't flat, but rather the ability to pressurize the room isn't there. I'm not sure if that has to do with the electrostatic or the open baffle/dipolar nature of MLs, but I plan on doing some testing to that end in the next few weeks/months. If it ends up being the electrostatic aspect...then the CLX should be SWEET! since it looks like it has a dipolar cone array alongside a panel...so should improve upon that "issue"

While I'm sure getting more "punch" in the midbass would improve on certain types of music...I wonder at the effect on certain types that are so beautifully portrayed by the MLs...and hope there won't be any negative effect.
 

charliemike

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Hi charlie,
Incredible! What do you do with your SL3s then? Stroke them every now and then and talk to them? :cool: Hope you'll find some good gear to mate them up with soon and enjoy them as they were meant to be. Get them to sing to you instead!
Ben
Hehe, I listened to some Claritys at Magnolia, bought the SL3s in February, got engaged, got un-engaged, and the whole time the SL3s have been at a friends house sitting there patiently waiting to be used!

I'm going nuts :) I'm moving into a new place soon (I was the one to leave) and so I'm trying to get my audio needs ready to hook up as soon as I move in!

Thanks for the support!
 

charliemike

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charliemike, have you ever considered getting a pro-amp for $300 or so? You can e-bay a new Crown XLS402B which is rated down to 2 ohms for $300-$350.
How is that so cheap? I don't understand. Even Outlaw (who is a better deal than most) is still more than that for their monoblock (2200).

I would love to go to a high-end store and listen to different amps and such but I'm not going to spend $5k on an amp and it wouldn't be fair to waste their time.

Outlaw has a deal of a 990 and 5 monoblocks for $2200 ... That's a pretty good deal I think unless the 2200s just simply suck.

Specs:

Power Output:

200 watts @ 8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, <0.05% THD;
300 watts @ 4 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, <0.05% THD

Signal to Noise: 112 dB "A" weighted

Input Impedance: >10K Ohms

Gain: +27dB (1.7V sensitivity) for full output
 

IWalker

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It's pro-audio as opposed to hifi, so it's mass produced by major manufacturers, as opposed to being made in small batches by boutique firms. Margins are of the standard type, as opposed to luxury type, etc. (ie, quality is defined more by features than price, whereas in the luxury industry, price often dictates quality) If you're going high end, there's a lot to be gained, I think, by stepping up to some of the better hifi products...but that doesn't take away from the incredible value offered by the pro-amp alternative. Tons of power, but not necessarily as "refined" as the hifi alternative. I can tell you that it sounds great to me, though...and if you go with the bi-amping eventually...it can be a great investment.
 

charliemike

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It's pro-audio as opposed to hifi, so it's mass produced by major manufacturers, as opposed to being made in small batches by boutique firms. Margins are of the standard type, as opposed to luxury type, etc. (ie, quality is defined more by features than price, whereas in the luxury industry, price often dictates quality) If you're going high end, there's a lot to be gained, I think, by stepping up to some of the better hifi products...but that doesn't take away from the incredible value offered by the pro-amp alternative. Tons of power, but not necessarily as "refined" as the hifi alternative. I can tell you that it sounds great to me, though...and if you go with the bi-amping eventually...it can be a great investment.
At this point in my journey, I "know what sounds good to me" but by no means am I an audiophile (yet). I don't necessarily believe in paying for a name which is why I went used SL3s instead of new Claritys.

Do I need one for each SL3?
 

DTB300

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I "know what sounds good to me" ........
That is all that matters. What everyone else is suggesting is just their opinions on what they like, or what they may have heard. Set your budget and try to listen to as much stuff as you can, then make your choice. If you like it, then it was a great choice.

By no means ever purchase something just becuase someone else said so unless you absolutely trust their ears, and you are VERY familiar with them and their likes and dislikes. For instance, I have a very good friend, and we have attended many of the audio shows and we know each others tastes, likes and dislikes. With this, we trust each other opinions on a given component or source.

Remember there is no best component (tube or SS) or source (vinyl, tape or digital), it is a matter of preference and ones own tastes.

Dan
 
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