How come ML didnt make Stereophile's latest Class A list?

[twich54]

Mark, I'm going to side "somewhat" with you. Yes I love my Logan's, but if they went out of business tomorrow I sure as hell wouldn't stop listening to music ! That being said in the Vantage price point they ARE my favorite, whereas at the 10k point of the Summitt I believe their is even greater competion for your dollar. As far as the Wilson line my dealer in Wilmington is the big gun on the east coast when comes to his speakers so I've had the chance to listen to just about all of them, even through the 25k MIT cabling (what a waste of $$$$), I was most impressed with the 22k model (Sophia maybe ??? I can't remember the name) Regardless, even if I had that kind of money to spend, it's not my style of eye candy.

 

[lugano]

Spoken by a true BBQer..

you bet... I bbq even under heavy snow, 3 times a week.

Heard the Maxx 2's the other day and was not impressed - especially for $45k

it's like owning a Ferrari. Every 2 days you're at the reseller with some problem. It gets solved - it's a Ferrari - but at the end of the day you're not enjoying the car, you're enjoying the service. Given this, I prefer Toyotas...

 

[aliveatfive]

Hey Mark -

The reason I don't agree with your thinking is that MLs have been listed in "Recommended Components" for years. They have not gotten around to reviewing the new line ML speakers yet, but I would bet they make that list when they are. FWIW, TAS does not like wilson Sophias at all.

 

[Statman]

Mark, I'm going to side "somewhat" with you. Yes I love my Logan's, but if they went out of business tomorrow I sure as hell wouldn't stop listening to music ! That being said in the Vantage price point they ARE my favorite, whereas at the 10k point of the Summitt I believe their is even greater competion for your dollar. As far as the Wilson line my dealer in Wilmington is the big gun on the east coast when comes to his speakers so I've had the chance to listen to just about all of them, even through the 25k MIT cabling (what a waste of $$$$), I was most impressed with the 22k model (Sophia maybe ??? I can't remember the name) Regardless, even if I had that kind of money to spend, it's not my style of eye candy.

Watt Puppy 7's are the 22K speakers you mentioned. My friend Brooks Berdan has all three models in his store. Maxx II's,Watt Puppy 7's and Sophias I've heard the Maxx II's and the Watt Puppy 7's and the Maxx II's were stunning. It's just that price of 45K hanging over my head?

Watt Puppy 7's would be my replacement if I were to change from My Odyssey's

 

[Joey_V]

I think that it's because Stereophile hasnt reviewed the newer Logans, period. If they review it, they will most likely include it into their Class List... no one has really given the Summits a bad review - picky review though? Sure... but most everyone who has spent some quality time with the Summits will agree that it is among the best electrostats around so I see no reason why it wouldnt make the Stereophile list if it was ever reviewed.

As for all this other speaker talk....

I just came back from auditioning the 802D and 800D (along with the 803D and 804S) from my local dealer.... so it's perfect for me to jump in right now.

Do I think my Summits are the best I've heard yet - yes. Do I think it has competition at the $10K price point - no. Do I think it has competition at the $12K+ pricepoint, yes.

Does the Summit beat out anything else I've heard up to $20K? To my ears, yes. There's a reason why I waited until now to jump on the ML bandwagon - and not back in the day last year when the Ascents were going for $2700 at Tweeter on closeout... it's because I never liked ML sound until now. Am I wrong to think this way? No.

Beyond simple comparisons, I think the Summits/Vantage are the top of the ML heap for a reason... they take whatever ML knows in speaker design and implementation and built it around their respective price points. Do I think they are perfect? No.

I think that with what I'm powering the ML Summits with and my numerous system-wide weaknesses, I still prefer my system over the full onslaught systems I heard today... is this to say that I wouldnt take an 802D if ML Summits werent around? No... because I would take the 802D in a heartbeat.... yes, they were superb.

Will I change my mind about my Summits next week when I listen to the Wilson Watt/Puppy and Sophias? Maybe. Maybe not.

Now.. I know I'm not as experienced as some of you veterans here, but I know what good sound is and I'm picky enough to a point where I can be extremely critical of audio equipment when need be. I listen critically and can listen for the subtleties (and sometimes, not so subtle) that separate the good speakers from the great speakers... so take what I said for what it is - my opinions.

 

[alex]

the reason they are not listed is becuase they have not reviewed them yet...

ok i'll give you that one, but why are there no reviews? don't you think that a name such as martin logan have to be a must on their review priorities? but only if they pay.
i'm sure a lot of you have heard adcom and pass amps, do you think they belong on the same class? me neither, but stereophile does.

 

[attyonline]

Maybe ML is not on the list cause they can be had at magnolia and tweeter (the thought of that still gets me sick).

Why? Thought of the unwashed hearing your marque speaker too unsettling? Reality is that high end audio is dying with ipod, mp 3, internet radio and other lo fi sources ruling the roost. Kids under thirty for the most part do not even think about high end audio and have no idea what it can do for even ipod-based systems. Magnolia at Best Buys is not an ideal setup but it exposes far more people to a taste of real high end than all the current high end stores combined. If 5% of those folks decide to follow up on ML speakers as a result of this exposure, then ML will be here in twenty years. Otherwise, most high end companies will die out with the older audiophiles.

 

[lugano]

Reality is that high end audio is dying with ipod, mp 3, internet radio and other lo fi sources ruling the roost.

Reality is that audio as a whole is dying with rap and similar crap. You don't need ML's to rap your mind senseless - they are the wrong loudspeakers for that. MLs and electronics are only the vehicle which establish our link with the music. As long as good music will be produced, it will profit from good electronics. Besides - kids grow up, too... it's also our responsability to transmit good tastes and good habits. On my side, I try to convince every friend about the importance of listening to music through high quality gear. I'm not very successful at it, I must admit, but I keep on trying. The iPod effect is a good thing in my opinion, because a trend helped people to get back to listening, and this is positive. Now, what they are listening to... that's a different thing...

 

[Joey_V]

Why? Thought of the unwashed hearing your marque speaker too unsettling? Reality is that high end audio is dying with ipod, mp 3, internet radio and other lo fi sources ruling the roost. Kids under thirty for the most part do not even think about high end audio and have no idea what it can do for even ipod-based systems. Magnolia at Best Buys is not an ideal setup but it exposes far more people to a taste of real high end than all the current high end stores combined. If 5% of those folks decide to follow up on ML speakers as a result of this exposure, then ML will be here in twenty years. Otherwise, most high end companies will die out with the older audiophiles.

I'm doing my part in changing that... I got a few converts out here in medical school. Atleast half a dozen more audiophiles down the road are blooming... .

 

[Craig]

Reality is that high end audio is dying with ipod, mp 3, internet radio and other lo fi sources ruling the roost. Kids under thirty for the most part do not even think about high end audio and have no idea what it can do for even ipod-based systems.

I don't really buy that whole high-end audio is a dying business. Where are the facts? Why are all these high-end companies investing in new amd better gear every year. I'm not aware of any major players bailing out of the business in the past year.

Since when was youth into high-end gear anyway? Most can't afford it. I always loved the Corvette but I couldn't afford one until I was another one of those middle-aged man in a Vette. Same with high-end audio. I wasn't into myself until I was older and a little less poor. I think today's youth who are listening to MP3s and such will demand better quality later on and when they can afford it. Especially when they hear what they've been missing.

What does all this have to with Summits on the "A" lis? Nothing really, I think we wandered off the topic. But getting back to that. It doesn't concern me whether or not a magaine who's business is paid advertisement puts this speaker on their list. Yeah it would be nice for the speakers I won to be recognized but it's not on their "B" or "C" list either. However, it's on my "A" list for my own list of reasons and that's what really matters to me.

 

[Scumurculum]

I agree with craig on that point.

I am not concerned with the present MP3, ipod generation, and how that will suposedly mean the end of high quality music etc etc etc.

When I was a teenager in the 80s I remember copying my records, onto cassettes an giving them to friends and visa versa. Also I did a lot of copying off the radio.

So basically what is different now?

 

[Joey_V]

In agreement with Craig...

I dont think hifi is dying.. if anything, look at how many kids want better audio... go to hardforum.com and check out the computer audio section, many time kids younger than me ask for tips regarding the best computer speakers out there - some with budgets up to $500... for a 15 year old kid, that's like a 40 year old man spending $5000.

Then look at a growing community with respect to headphones, hi end headphones. Check out headfi.org.... most of the people on that site are about my age or slightly younger (around 20)... and their headphone setups can easily rival many of our Martin Logan setups in cost...

I've seen kids spend $3000-5000 on headphones, amps, dacs, meridian/eastsound cd players, interconnects, powercords, etc... Not only that, I've seen guys spend $10,000 on a headphone amp alone....

I dont think hifi will die for a looong time.

Internet is helping people link to better products, link to others in the same hobby, and link to this thing called - "upgrade-itis".

If hifi were truly dying, then explain how several of my friends (who swear on $50 computer speakers) are aiming for $5000 systems after hearing my setup....

 

[MarkNewbie]

the reason they are not listed is becuase they have not reviewed them yet...

ok i'll give you that one, but why are there no reviews? don't you think that a name such as martin logan have to be a must on their review priorities? but only if they pay.
i'm sure a lot of you have heard adcom and pass amps, do you think they belong on the same class? me neither, but stereophile does.

Interested to hear what is wrong with Adcom or Pass. Two different brands for two different budgets. Please elaborate.

 

[alex]

mark, i think you misundertood the idea, for stereophile they both are class A
but in reality they are not, i'm not saying that adcom is a bad amp, but pass is 10 times better, so if you've heard both you know they are not on the same league, but adcom has left a lot of money on stereophile's bank account, so for they adcom qualifies on class A, for me and for a lot of people that i know and have owned one of them, they are not even class B.

 

[Matten Logan]

I dont hold very much for what the guys in stereophile have to write. I talked at length with the former owner of a very high end and well established store in L.A. called ambrosia a/v. He knows some of those reviewers, and they get major kickbacks for doing those reviews. They dont get paid much by the magazine, but the companies being reviewed give them a liberal 1 year loaner product, and as long as they like what they read, they dont really need their stuff back right away (if you get my meaning). If they dont like what they read, "um, that stuff we loaned you. . . could we get that back. . .right now". Then some companies (if they really like what they read) let them buy the product for pennies on the dollar. Those reviewers are honest stereo lovers, but some of them couldnt afford the stuff they test if they sold their bodies to science, and if it were me, to get a 10K amp or 30K pair of speakers, all i had to do was slightly omit some stuff and candy coat the other stuff i write, i might be tempted to do it.
All this was given to me by my reputable source, so i'm not accusing them, i just think that we should take that list and those reviews with a grain of salt. The guys at audioholics.com are way more honest, i'd trust them anyday. JMTC.

 

[sleepysurf]

I just stumbled upon this interesting post by John Atkinson, responding to an Audio Asylum query about why Stereophile has not yet reviewed the Summit or Vantage...

"> Can we therefore expect a MartinLogan review from Stereophile, or
> will MartinLogan not risk it?

Robert Deutsch had a long-standing request in to MartinLogan for a
review sample for Stereophile. However, following our coverage of the
Montage speaker in 2005, which ML regarded as extremely negative -- see
www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/505ml -- they apparently
decided not to submit any further products for review, at least for a
while.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile"